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Fact Check??? Pink news on crazy pills.

(61 Posts)
Ginnyhip46 Wed 24-Jun-20 02:48:26

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/06/19/channel-4-news-jk-rowling-itn-transphobia-trans-women-men-fact-check-pinknews/

Words fail me.

OP’s posts: |
LookAtTheCahhOlivahhhhh Wed 24-Jun-20 02:49:55

I'm not clicking on PinkNews, they're not getting ad revenue from my visits. Please can you copy+paste?

notyourhandmaid Wed 24-Jun-20 03:05:42

Copy&pasted:

Channel 4 News alarmingly stands by JK Rowling’s inaccurate and disturbing assertion that trans women are men
RYAN BUTCHER AND JOSH MILTON JUNE 19, 2020

JK Rowling's comment on sex and identity drew mass denouncement from trans activists. (Bruce Glikas/Bruce Glikas/FilmMagic)

JK Rowling's comment on sex and identity drew mass denouncement from trans activists. (Bruce Glikas/Bruce Glikas/FilmMagic)

Channel 4 News alarmingly stood by JK Rowling’s inaccurate and disturbing assertion that trans women are men in a report published June 12.

In the outlet’s “Fact Check” series, staff dived deep into the fiction author’s claim that a cisgendered man could, without undergoing or showing an intention to undergo surgery, acquire a document that legally recognising them as a woman.

ADVERTISING

It challenged a previous article PinkNews published June 10 that called this statement “wrong”.

The report concluded that Rowling’s claim is factually accurate, “that hormones or surgery [is] not required for legal change”.

But the report fails to clarify that, no, a “man” cannot do this. Yes, a trans woman, assigned male at birth, can obtain a gender recognition certificate after a lengthy process without surgery. But a cis man can not do this.

Channel 4 News missed the point when assessing the validity of JK Rowling’s views.
By fact-checking this statement and saying it is accurate, the report runs the risk of being wielded by anti-trans groups like a club to compel trans people to backdown. It denied the very existence of trans people.

Channel 4 News is produced by ITN, an independent news production company that also produces the news for ITV and Channel 5. ITN itself is owned by ITV and the Daily Mail, among others.

Binder Ep. 6

Eating Disorders Among LGBT Community Ep. 23

Rain Dove: Non-Binary Model Ep. 09

Rain Dove: Non-Binary Model Ep. 12

Gender Pronouns Ep. 3

Ask The Aunties: "Bad Sex in Relationship" Ep. 2

What happened during Stonewall Riots? Ep. 7

Rain Dove: Non-Binary Model Ep. 03

Lesbian Quiz Ep. 02

Dating a Trans Man Ep. 4

Ask The Aunties: "Slept with my friend" Ep. 4

Eating Disorders Among LGBT Community Ep. 12

Powered by Firework
So, when approached by PinkNews for comment to clarify whether Channel 4 News is standing by Fact Check’s apparent assertion that trans women are men, an ITN spokesperson responded: “The Fact Check journalism speaks for itself.”

Moreover, various university professors, human rights lawyers and government officials have stressed to PinkNews that, no, a cis man cannot obtain a GRC – a trans woman can. PinkNews has also repeatedly stressed this point to both Fact Check and Channel 4 News.

With the crucial difference here being that a trans woman is not a man, they are a woman, and a cis man is not a trans woman, they are a man.

Channel 4 itself declined to comment when PinkNews asked whether it considered trans women to be women or men.

‘JK Rowling appears to have misunderstood the Gender Recognition Certificate process.’
Many of the concerns listed here were echoed by various experts, who told PinkNews that Rowling’s interpretation of gender law is skewed.

Jonathan Cooper, a leading human rights barrister based at Doughty Street Chambers, and Paul Johnson, a professor of sociology at the University of York, explained how trans woman can apply for a GRC and be legally recognised as a woman, but a cis man cannot do this.

Conversely, a trans man can apply for a GRC and be legally recognised as a man, but a cis woman cannot do this.

Johnson told PinkNews: “A person who applies for a Gender Recognition Certificate via the standard route to certify that they are, for all purposes in law, a woman, is a person who has medically evidenced gender dysphoria, lived as a woman for at least two years, and intends to continue to live as a woman until death.

“That person is, therefore, already a woman in the social sense, and is seeking legal validation of her female gender/sex.”

Cooper explained: “JK Rowling appears to have misunderstood the process, for a trans woman or trans man to receive a GRC, they must go through an elaborate, and for some, a humiliating process.

“A diagnosis of gender dysphoria must be made and the individual must live for at least two years in that gender, and they must intend to do so for life.

“A GRC is conclusive proof of gender identity and it is legally enforceable. However, to be given that recognition, an individual is highly medicalised. It is a long and drawn out procedure.

“It does not require the person concerned to undergo surgery. To require sterilisation, forced therapies and other surgery would be inhuman, but for people who just want to be recognised for who they are, they must go though a gruelling process.

“A man cannot simply announce he is a woman and be given a GRC.

“JK Rowing is misrepresenting the current reality for trans people who wish to be legally recognised in their experienced gender if she suggests otherwise. The ‘man’ that JK Rowling refers to could not get a GRC. Only a trans woman or trans man could.”

The GRC process is a long and gruelling one.
In Britain, the process by which a trans person can change the sex marker on their birth certificate is, to many critics, a gruelling one. So much so that an overwhelming number of trans people in the UK don’t even have one.

Staggered by bureaucracy and lengthy waits, to acquire a GRC, a trans person must be over 18, have lived their true gender for two years and have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Trans folk will often undergo gender affirmation surgeries, as well as hormone therapies, to align more closely with their gender. GRC applicants file two medical reports as part of their application form.

The first is a psychiatrist’s diagnoses of gender dysphoria. The other report is a doctor’s detailing of what surgeries the applicant has already undergone or intends to have – under government guidelines, the applicant does not necessarily have to undergo or plan to have surgery, but GRCs are rarely granted to those who do not seek medical treatment.

But this entire process is, to Rowling, an alarmingly simple one.

In a dense essay, Rowling expressed the view that: “A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law.”

Indeed, what the view chiefly did was expose the widening gulfs that surrounded Britain’s scattered laws around gender and sex.

A trans woman, for example, can cooperate with various businesses, whether it be banks or companies, as well as various official agencies, to change their listed gender.

As much as this ranges from bank statements to utility bills, this also applies to other wholesale identification documents, such as passports or driving licenses. Doing so is, under government guidelines, is part of the “proof” needed that an applicant has lived in their true gender for two years.

What the GRC does, in short, is allow a trans person to change the gender marker on their birth certificate.

As much as many Harry Potter fans have begun reimagining a world without the series’ original creator, trans folk lack the option to change the world of medical panels, yearslong waits for life-saving surgeries and the paralysing, grating feeling of being in a body that does not match the gender you are.

What Rowling’s hypothetical scenario highlights is that gender and sex laws are muddied by technicalities. A government official told PinkNews that a citizens’ legal sex (on their birth certificate) only matters in certain circumstances, such as assessing a pension.

But in the public arena, legal sex is irrelevant. Such as the aforementioned changing of passports and bills – it is all done via self-identification.

More from PinkNews

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Celebs you didn’t know have an LGBT sibling

The stars who went gay for pay

The path to applying a GRC is charted by the 2004 Gender Recognition Act. Plans to reform the legislation that has administrated gender and sex for the last 16 years were first introduced by Theresa May’s government.

And aims to soften the GRA – to make the GRC application shorter, simpler and more in line with self-identification – were stalled, if not eradicated, last weekend when a leaked government report suggested that plans to reform the GRA have been shelved.

Instead, sources told The Sunday Times, despite an overwhelming 70 per cent of the public responding to a government consultation on introducing self-identification, ministers are choosing to ignore public views altogether.

Trans people simply hoping to achieve a bland and boring life goal of, say, using a public restroom, may struggle now.

Ministers leading the Government Equalities Office will allegedly lay out a plan to restrict trans people’s access to public bathrooms, touching off fears forwarded by “gender critical” groups that trans people using bathrooms that align with their identities endangers people.

They say that a trans woman’s presence in the facility will subject cis women to a greater risk of assault and privacy violations.

There is no evidence to back-up this claim.

Moreover, and in contrast, there is overwhelming evidence supplied by various government agencies, university researchers, LGBT+ advocacy groups and non-profit fact-checkers, when denying a trans or non-binary person, young teens especially, an appropriate facility, it places them at a greater risk of sexual and physical assault and privacy violations.

More: #pantwitter, anti-trans, channel 4, channel 4 news, Fact-check, JK Rowling, transphobia

Ginnyhip46 Wed 24-Jun-20 03:08:39

Channel 4 News alarmingly stands by JK Rowling’s inaccurate and disturbing assertion that trans women are men
RYAN BUTCHER AND JOSH MILTON JUNE 19, 2020
Twitter
JK Rowling's comment on sex and identity drew mass denouncement from trans activists.
JK Rowling's comment on sex and identity drew mass denouncement from trans activists.

Channel 4 News alarmingly stood by JK Rowling’s inaccurate and disturbing assertion that trans women are men in a report published June 12.

In the outlet’s “Fact Check” series, staff dived deep into the fiction author’s claim that a cisgendered man could, without undergoing or showing an intention to undergo surgery, acquire a document that legally recognising them as a woman.

It challenged a previous article PinkNews published June 10 that called this statement “wrong”.

The report concluded that Rowling’s claim is factually accurate, “that hormones or surgery [is] not required for legal change”.

But the report fails to clarify that, no, a “man” cannot do this. Yes, a trans woman, assigned male at birth, can obtain a gender recognition certificate after a lengthy process without surgery. But a cis man can not do this.

Channel 4 News missed the point when assessing the validity of JK Rowling’s views.
By fact-checking this statement and saying it is accurate, the report runs the risk of being wielded by anti-trans groups like a club to compel trans people to backdown. It denied the very existence of trans people.

Channel 4 News is produced by ITN, an independent news production company that also produces the news for ITV and Channel 5. ITN itself is owned by ITV and the Daily Mail, among others.

So, when approached by PinkNews for comment to clarify whether Channel 4 News is standing by Fact Check’s apparent assertion that trans women are men, an ITN spokesperson responded: “The Fact Check journalism speaks for itself.”

Moreover, various university professors, human rights lawyers and government officials have stressed to PinkNews that, no, a cis man cannot obtain a GRC – a trans woman can. PinkNews has also repeatedly stressed this point to both Fact Check and Channel 4 News.

With the crucial difference here being that a trans woman is not a man, they are a woman, and a cis man is not a trans woman, they are a man.

Channel 4 itself declined to comment when PinkNews asked whether it considered trans women to be women or men.

‘JK Rowling appears to have misunderstood the Gender Recognition Certificate process.’
Many of the concerns listed here were echoed by various experts, who told PinkNews that Rowling’s interpretation of gender law is skewed.

Jonathan Cooper, a leading human rights barrister based at Doughty Street Chambers, and Paul Johnson, a professor of sociology at the University of York, explained how trans woman can apply for a GRC and be legally recognised as a woman, but a cis man cannot do this.

Conversely, a trans man can apply for a GRC and be legally recognised as a man, but a cis woman cannot do this.

Johnson told PinkNews: “A person who applies for a Gender Recognition Certificate via the standard route to certify that they are, for all purposes in law, a woman, is a person who has medically evidenced gender dysphoria, lived as a woman for at least two years, and intends to continue to live as a woman until death.

“That person is, therefore, already a woman in the social sense, and is seeking legal validation of her female gender/sex.”

Cooper explained: “JK Rowling appears to have misunderstood the process, for a trans woman or trans man to receive a GRC, they must go through an elaborate, and for some, a humiliating process.

“A diagnosis of gender dysphoria must be made and the individual must live for at least two years in that gender, and they must intend to do so for life.

“A GRC is conclusive proof of gender identity and it is legally enforceable. However, to be given that recognition, an individual is highly medicalised. It is a long and drawn out procedure.

“It does not require the person concerned to undergo surgery. To require sterilisation, forced therapies and other surgery would be inhuman, but for people who just want to be recognised for who they are, they must go though a gruelling process.

“A man cannot simply announce he is a woman and be given a GRC.

“JK Rowing is misrepresenting the current reality for trans people who wish to be legally recognised in their experienced gender if she suggests otherwise. The ‘man’ that JK Rowling refers to could not get a GRC. Only a trans woman or trans man could.”

The GRC process is a long and gruelling one.

In Britain, the process by which a trans person can change the sex marker on their birth certificate is, to many critics, a gruelling one. So much so that an overwhelming number of trans people in the UK don’t even have one.

Staggered by bureaucracy and lengthy waits, to acquire a GRC, a trans person must be over 18, have lived their true gender for two years and have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Trans folk will often undergo gender affirmation surgeries, as well as hormone therapies, to align more closely with their gender. GRC applicants file two medical reports as part of their application form.

The first is a psychiatrist’s diagnoses of gender dysphoria. The other report is a doctor’s detailing of what surgeries the applicant has already undergone or intends to have – under government guidelines, the applicant does not necessarily have to undergo or plan to have surgery, but GRCs are rarely granted to those who do not seek medical treatment.

But this entire process is, to Rowling, an alarmingly simple one.

In a dense essay, Rowling expressed the view that: “A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law.”

Indeed, what the view chiefly did was expose the widening gulfs that surrounded Britain’s scattered laws around gender and sex.

A trans woman, for example, can cooperate with various businesses, whether it be banks or companies, as well as various official agencies, to change their listed gender.

As much as this ranges from bank statements to utility bills, this also applies to other wholesale identification documents, such as passports or driving licenses. Doing so is, under government guidelines, is part of the “proof” needed that an applicant has lived in their true gender for two years.

What the GRC does, in short, is allow a trans person to change the gender marker on their birth certificate.

As much as many Harry Potter fans have begun reimagining a world without the series’ original creator, trans folk lack the option to change the world of medical panels, yearslong waits for life-saving surgeries and the paralysing, grating feeling of being in a body that does not match the gender you are.

What Rowling’s hypothetical scenario highlights is that gender and sex laws are muddied by technicalities. A government official told PinkNews that a citizens’ legal sex (on their birth certificate) only matters in certain circumstances, such as assessing a pension.

But in the public arena, legal sex is irrelevant. Such as the aforementioned changing of passports and bills – it is all done via self-identification.

OP’s posts: |
Ginnyhip46 Wed 24-Jun-20 03:11:43

Oops you got there before me Notyourhandmaid!

OP’s posts: |
Ginnyhip46 Wed 24-Jun-20 03:15:44

"JK says of you are a man you can get a self certificate to be a lady, but Pink news say you can't get a certificate because you are a man. However they say you can get a certificate if you say you are a woman even though you are a man."

OP’s posts: |
TehBewilderness Wed 24-Jun-20 03:19:21

Cooper explained: “JK Rowling appears to have misunderstood the process, for a trans woman or trans man to receive a GRC, they must go through an elaborate, and for some, a humiliating process.

Rowling was correct.
All it takes is a note from your doctor that you identify as something you are not.
Use a fake name on a magazine subscription or whatever.
Harass someone into using your pronouns of choice.
Submit for approval and ta da.
Most transgenders don't bother because transitioning organizations have thoroughly groomed the public to submit to trans dominance out of fear.

ItsLateHumpty Wed 24-Jun-20 03:22:31

I think at the point Pink ‘News’ is pointless parody - see also their reporting of this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3945350-Leeds-Library-hosts-Drag-Queen-Story-Hour-on-June-22nd?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/06/23/drag-queen-story-hour-uk-aida-h-dee-sab-samuel-leeds-city-council-sarah-field-mumsnet/?fbclid=IwAR04tJLzqE4djLK7EGfGz7FRWmEZ4eGJnXGaJYmZErAzreMfqksmwLkhb3I

Starts with...

“A Drag Queen Story Hour UK event was cancelled Monday (June 22) after a coordinated campaign by Mumsnet users and various north England anti-trans networks that even received the apparent backing from a local councillor.

Following weeks of planning and talks with council administrators, Aida H Dee, the founder of Drag Queen Story Hour UK, was set to host an online reading workshop with Leeds Libraries on June 22.

But the event was dealt a devastating broadside by Mumsnet users who clogged Leeds City Council inboxes with emails demanding the Story Hour be shut down.

They won.

During the saga, Dee has been doxxed and had anti-trans individuals threaten her life, she claimed in an interview with PinkNews, which has left her emotionally rattled and with no choice but to seek safeguarding measures from the police.“

And I won’t quote the rest because it’s just as banal and as close to ‘true’ as the ‘article’ in the OP.

MN thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3947689-Is-this-true

Honestly they are not worth the bytes we give them here.

notyourhandmaid Wed 24-Jun-20 03:37:45

The report concluded that Rowling’s claim is factually accurate, “that hormones or surgery [is] not required for legal change”.

But the report fails to clarify that, no, a “man” cannot do this. Yes, a trans woman, assigned male at birth, can obtain a gender recognition certificate after a lengthy process without surgery. But a cis man can not do this.

A 'cis man' can totally do this, on account of being no different from a 'trans woman' biology-wise and simply claiming special gender-feelings. You have not made it possible to distinguish between the two.

It denied the very existence of trans people.

In what universe is it even possible to deny the 'very existence' of a group this loud?

A GRC is conclusive proof of gender identity and it is legally enforceable. However, to be given that recognition, an individual is highly medicalised. It is a long and drawn out procedure.

Really misleading language here. 'Highly medicalised' here does not mean 'medicated', as many might presume; it means 'talking to doctors'. ('Talking to doctors' about something for a couple of years is something many women are very accustomed to, on account on being less likely to be believed about pain etc.)

lived as a woman for at least two years

What does this actually mean beyond using a female name and/or Ms/Miss etc prefix?

In Britain, the process by which a trans person can change the sex marker on their birth certificate is, to many critics, a gruelling one. So much so that an overwhelming number of trans people in the UK don’t even have one.

'Sex' referenced when it suits, only.

What the GRC does, in short, is allow a trans person to change the gender marker on their birth certificate.

It's not even internally consistent.

yearslong waits for life-saving surgeries

Imagine waiting years for appropriate medical treatment. How would women ever know anything about that.

....touching off fears forwarded by “gender critical” groups that trans people using bathrooms that align with their identities endangers people. They say that a trans woman’s presence in the facility will subject cis women to a greater risk of assault and privacy violations. There is no evidence to back-up this claim.

1/ yes there is
2/ the argument is actually, as you well know you misogynist PrickNews-ers, that men's presence in these spaces will threaten women. Because the vagueness around the term 'trans woman' is absolutely a loophole that will be exploited and already has been, particularly in the prison system.

...when denying a trans or non-binary person, young teens especially, an appropriate facility, it places them at a greater risk of sexual and physical assault and privacy violations.

This also applies to women. The group who biologically will need to use bathrooms more often, who are the only group at risk for pregnancy as a result of rape, and who are biologically far more likely to be infected with a sexually-transmitted disease as a result of rape.

Never mind them, though.

notyourhandmaid Wed 24-Jun-20 03:39:10

Ginnyhip46

Oops you got there before me Notyourhandmaid!

can we unclick the link so the wretched site gets fewer visits?! smile

TehBewilderness Wed 24-Jun-20 03:45:40

I am starting to think it's just a bunch of abusive men in drag and that transwomen are just men with a fetish.

Coyoacan Wed 24-Jun-20 03:54:09

I think it is another case where we need to the sorting hat. It never fails

WombOfOnesOwn Wed 24-Jun-20 05:25:18

Graham Linehan should consider doing it to prove a point.

This has got to be satire.

In any case, if I accept that a woman is now "anyone who identifies as a woman" [I'm not sure how one can accept a statement that has no meaning, but leaving aside the absurdity of it for now...], and "identifying as a woman" means conforming to feminine stereotypes [because what else can it mean if biology doesn't come into it], then I guess I'm not a woman. Which means they're going to have to come up with a new word for non-woman females like me. Or... here's an idea... perhaps we could just keep the old word, and the people trying to redefine it could use a different word for themselves instead.

CourtneyLurve Wed 24-Jun-20 06:14:37

With the crucial difference here being that a trans woman is not a man, they are a woman, and a cis man is not a trans woman, they are a man.

What?? LOL, I don't even think they know what they're arguing anymore.

StealthPolarBear Wed 24-Jun-20 06:24:34

"
Instead, sources told The Sunday Times, despite an overwhelming 70 per cent of the public responding to a government consultation on introducing self-identification, ministers are choosing to ignore public views altogether."
This sounds highly unlikely to me. 7 in 10 of the entire population responded to the reform of the GRA consultation?

EmpressLangClegSpartacus Wed 24-Jun-20 06:33:48

This sounds highly unlikely to me. 7 in 10 of the entire population responded to the reform of the GRA consultation?

Nope. Of the responses they got, 70% were in favour of self-ID, BUT they also recognised that an awful lot of those were template replies from Stonewall & friends.

When you think that on one side there was the TRA juggernaut with all its resources, and on the other a bunch of grassroots feminist groups that had to spring up from nowhere, crowdfund & hand out leaflets etc in our spare time to fight the GRA reforms, we did a bloody good job to even get 30%.

StealthPolarBear Wed 24-Jun-20 06:37:11

But that's not what it says
"70% of the public responding..."

SunsetBeetch Wed 24-Jun-20 06:42:25

Archived version - don't give Pink News the ad revenue generated from clicks!

archive.vn/9VOLi

SunsetBeetch Wed 24-Jun-20 06:45:10

(I'm seriously beginning to think that Pink News is ratcheting up the craziness on purpose, as the only people who give them clicks these days are us.)

BelleHathor Wed 24-Jun-20 07:02:09

shaking my head

BovaryX Wed 24-Jun-20 07:07:15

But a cis man can not do this

Er, where's the evidence to support this? Self ID means any man can do this, were he so inclined.

Channel 4 News missed the point when assessing the validity of JK Rowling’s views.By fact-checking this statement and saying it is accurate, the report runs the risk of being wielded by anti-trans groups

So fact checking us wrong and reporting the results of the fact check is wrong? This is a demand to silence reporting of facts. That isn't journalism. It's propaganda.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Wed 24-Jun-20 07:23:19

The report concluded that Rowling’s claim is factually accurate

But it's wrong because feelings! Emotions! We are very offended that science refuses to consistently bend to our collective wills!

Pink News is to journalism as McDonalds is to a nutritious, healthy meal. Basically the media equivalent of the shit Famine produces in Good Omen that will make you fat while you die of malnutrition.

Xanthangum Wed 24-Jun-20 07:55:35

JK: Men become trans women

PN: No! Trans women become trans women. Who are actual women.

Channel 4 Fact Check: Actually, she's right

PN: YOU GUYS ARE MEAN. Also, here is someone with an -ology who agrees with us, so ner.

TedsFederationRep Wed 24-Jun-20 08:13:20

In a dense* essay, Rowling expressed the view...*

I read what JKR had written and it was like listening to an old friend who had finally found the courage to open up. It was clear, direct, honest and really quite moving.

Only the especially dense could dismiss it as "a dense essay". Unless they meant "full of substance", which of course it was...

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