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'Dismantling cisgender privilege'

(140 Posts)
SistemaAddict Sun 14-Jun-20 00:32:33

I've just been on the Black Lives Matter website to find out more about the movement and found this:

"We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.
We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered."

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

"Cisgender privilege" and ooh look we are centring the men whilst stating we aren't hmm

I'd be interested to see statistics on black transwomen in relation to the above claims and compare them with various other statistics.

I'm too tired to get all my thoughts out but that privilege comment has really got to me.

OP’s posts: |
Melia100 Sun 14-Jun-20 01:15:02

Women don't experience any kind of imaginary c** privilege.

The fact the BLM organisers think they do is just another sign of how male-centred they are.

WarmthAndDepth Sun 14-Jun-20 01:36:14

Hi there, Bercows, I thought I'd trundle over here from the BLM thread to check if this had come up yet, and here you are smile
It is a glaring contradiction. But intersectionalism.

RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling Sun 14-Jun-20 01:45:52

Despite having appropriated the concept of intersectionality so that it's now understood to be synonymous with TWAW 'feminism', TRAs cannot countenance that having female reproductive biology is a distinct axis of oppression.

Taken at face value, a TWAW, intersectional perspective should acknowledge that female humans who consider themselves women are doubly oppressed as compared to TW, due to fitting whatever nebulous, circular definition there is that day of 'woman', in addition to suffering under the particular forms of oppression, violence, marginalisation and exploitation that people born female are subjected to.

Instead, of course, they assert that being 'cis' puts women in a position of privilege and power over the supposedly far more vulnerable (stronger, larger, invulnerable to pregnancy, born and socialised into male privilege) 'women' who have male reproductive biology. Somehow, even for people who believe they are two different things, the intersection of 'womanhood' and 'femaleness' doesn't count; in fact unlike all the other intersections of oppression which compound vulnerability, those two characteristics in one person form a double negative of oppression, cancelling each other out so that, actually, 'female women' are the privileged ones.

Which tells you all you need to know about how woman-hating this ideology is.

WarmthAndDepth Sun 14-Jun-20 02:11:54

Thanks, Rave. My remark about intersectionality was perhaps flippant, borne out of frustration with having it used as a stick to try to guilt-trip GC women into ceding ground to men, and in response to Bercows query on another thread as to why the BLM aims include such opposing statements. Straight from the bad old days of Everyday Feminism.

RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling Sun 14-Jun-20 02:46:39

Hi Warmth, sorry, I didn't mean that to come across as a direct reply to your comment about intersectionality. I understood the flippant comment and read it with an implied hmm.

The whole concept of 'cis privilege' just boils my blood, as does the fact that so called 'intersectional' feminists* wilfully ignore the very real axis of oppression that is biological sex, in favour of casting people born female in the role of oppressor in relation to the far far more vulnerable hmm people born male. Suddenly, if you call both groups 'women', being born female makes you privileged and oppressive rather than part of the subjugated class that female humans have always been. Fuck that.

I know that real intersectional feminism - i.e that which examines and illuminates the ways in which sex based oppression is compounded by other *real axes of oppression - such as race, sexuality and economic class - is incredibly important and necessary. It's just the fantasy that 'female born women' are privileged over 'amab hmm' ones, and therefore intersectional oppression applies to 'transwomen', that I call bullshit on.

ItsLateHumpty Sun 14-Jun-20 03:08:52

BLM!

Right up until they butt up against the most marginalised of all - white men IDing as a woman.

Then they can get to back of the queue.

Women were never really allowed in the queue.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong Sun 14-Jun-20 05:18:13

It’s as if they’ve forgotten the Male/female axis of oppression in their hasty reauthorisation of intersectionality.

How come transactivists aren’t told to be intersectional the way feminists are? Oh yes, because that would mean accepting that male and female are too distinct categories, and that’s literal violence or some such 🙄

midgebabe Sun 14-Jun-20 06:55:33

What is cis priveledge for a woman?

To be accepted as a woman? No thanks, I would rather be accepted as a human or a man
To be allowed to use the ladies loos? Well I would rather a separate Male and female loo were not necessary
To be paid less, to be ignored when it comes to design and medicine, be raped, to be the default carer, need I go one?

CourtneyLurve Sun 14-Jun-20 07:11:00

They go after other women because they are a soft target. As we've seen this week, there are no consequences to publicly calling a powerful woman a 'karen', a cunt or even calling for her death.

If they go after the actual architects of their suffering - men, it could limit their career opportunities, incite violence, or lead to critical media coverage because white men control everything.

midgebabe Sun 14-Jun-20 07:13:16

Transpriveldge can often be seen though, it's people being unable to recognise that ones sex can have a negative effect on another persons life chances because they have never experienced it so don't see it

tara66 Sun 14-Jun-20 07:30:24

Don't understand any of that - words I don't know.

Lillygolightly Sun 14-Jun-20 07:37:52

Cis Privilege

I’m sorry, what??? Cis privilege hmm

Feeling oppressed? Not equal? Feel marginalised? Feel unsafe? Judged?

Welcome to life as a woman.

Cis privilege my ass angry

PeaceCheese Sun 14-Jun-20 07:47:17

I think we as women who were born female definitely have privilege over trans females.

I have a delightful trans female relative who often has to use the disabled toilet because she gets challenged if she tries to use the women's, and challenged if she tries to use the men. If there isn't a disabled toilet, then she just has to hold it and hope that she doesn't wet herself.

Being a trans person who is imperfect at passing puts you below biological women. Trans people have a harder time finding employment and housing, and so are more likely to end up homeless or involved in sex work. They are more likely to get substandard healthcare because the trans body works differently to a biologically male or female body (assuming that they're on hormones). Unsurprisingly, all of this leads to a higher suicide rate for trans people.

I don't envy their lives at all. It's a hard life to lead, but they can't help that their brains don't match the body that they were born into.

PeaceCheese Sun 14-Jun-20 07:47:46

*men's

midgebabe Sun 14-Jun-20 07:51:27

We only have sex separated facilities to overcome the injustice that is abuse and discrimination that would otherwise prevent many women going out in public.

If trans is a significant brain to body problem then the person is entitled to use disabled facilities , if that's a problem it's because disabled people are usually overlooked

midgebabe Sun 14-Jun-20 07:53:50

And really you have just described why calling transwomen women and letting them use women's facilities is pointless

The problems that transwomen face are not the problems that women face

Also, be careful with the sex work and any suicide stats though, that's very culture dependent,

CodenameVillanelle Sun 14-Jun-20 07:57:54

I think we as women who were born female definitely have privilege over trans females

Trans females - you mean men? Women don't have privilege over men.

I have a delightful trans female relative who often has to use the disabled toilet because she gets challenged if she tries to use the women's, and challenged if she tries to use the men

If your relative doesn't pass as female there is no reason they should not use the men's.

Being a trans person who is imperfect at passing puts you below biological women

No, it means that everybody can see you are a man therefore you retain male privilege. Men are not 'below' women in terms of privilege.

Trans people have a harder time finding employment and housing, and so are more likely to end up homeless or involved in sex work. They are more likely to get substandard healthcare because the trans body works differently to a biologically male or female body (assuming that they're on hormones). Unsurprisingly, all of this leads to a higher suicide rate for trans people.

There is no evidence of any of that in the U.K. Heath issues are in great part because trans people change their sex markers on their health records which leads to confusion and misdiagnosis.

With regards to suicide - trans people do not have a higher rate of suicide than any other 'vulnerable' population. The highest risk group for suicide is Middle Aged straight men. Suicidality isn't a measure for oppression.

PeaceCheese Sun 14-Jun-20 08:26:29

If I look at the way my relative is treated, women assume they are a threat, and men assume they are a cissy/traitor, so they are treated worse than a non-trans person who is biologically male. As I said, because they see trans as traitors, men won't let my relative use the men's toilet.

As a biological woman I at least don't have to worry about whether there will be a toilet for me, because if there is one for men then there will definitely be one for me.

Also, this idea that we shouldn't treat transwomen the same because they experience different stigmas to cis women. As a non-white women experience different stigmas to white women, as do disabled women, but yet ethnic minorities like myself and disabled women aren't denied the right to identify as women because their experience is slightly different.

Men can have less privilege than women in multiple specific situations.

A white, able-bodied, straight man will have more privilege than a white, able-bodied straight woman.

But a white, able-bodied women will have more privileged than, for example, a black, disabled man who is mentally ill, or a white man with a severe developmental disability.

So women do usually have less privilege, but there are specific situations when that isn't the case.

terryleather Sun 14-Jun-20 08:47:38

Cis privilege is not a thing

midgebabe Sun 14-Jun-20 08:49:28

we fight to ensure that everyone gets treated fairly. We fight to raise all people to the same level. And here, we do that for women. BAME women, disabled women, women who think they are men, women with children, women with no children through choice, women who can't have children

We know there are problems for other people too, race, class, age, sexuality, disability, we know that male mental health is an issue, but each set of problems is different, with different causes and solutions

this board is focussed on women

Beamur Sun 14-Jun-20 09:17:36

PeaceCheese.
What you say is relatable, but I think flawed by failing to recognise who/where actually has the advantage.
What is happening to your relative is a result of good old fashioned sexism - your relative is discriminated against by men because they are male (but are feminine) and is viewed with suspicion by women because they are male and in a safe space for women. The 'cis' women here are not responding from privilege but from fear.
But I would agree that it's not fair that your relative doesn't have a place to go where they feel safe and unchallenged.

drspouse Sun 14-Jun-20 09:28:08

The BLM website isn't an organised head of a movement - it's just one group of people who happened to get the domain name.

BertiesLanding Sun 14-Jun-20 09:56:16

BLM as an organisation is queer theory driven communism, plain and simple. It is very cleverly hijacking the hearts and minds of people who have absolutely no idea about the ramifications of what they're mobilising for, or against.

drspouse Sun 14-Jun-20 09:59:59

But saying "Black Lives Matter" is not becoming a member of the organisation.
All the posts asking for donations, for example, are for bail and legal fees. Not to this central organisation.

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