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Do you think most people simply agree with radical TRA’s from lack of knowledge?

(60 Posts)
Cornana Thu 11-Jun-20 23:25:19

Most of my friends have said things like, “oh JK Rowling is very transphobic.” When I’ve actually showed them her Tweets, they’ve turned around and said it’s nothing like they thought and they agree with her. I study Law and most of my peers are very grounded and rational- We all understand the implications of getting rid of single sex definitions and spaces, etc, as we have to learn about it. The average person could easily not realise this, as it’s not something that really comes up unless you happen to be in the field or similar. I find a lot of my friends who judged Rowling and similar just actually didn’t know what being gender critical was about- Once we’ve actually had a conversation about what it actually is, the legal and social consequences etc, they’re normally a lot more open to gender critical points of view and agree with me.

Just that basically- Do other people think the trans movement only has such a big support online as people just don’t really know much or pay attention, see the word “transphobic” and automatically agree?

OP’s posts: |
Shedbuilder Thu 11-Jun-20 23:37:26

Yup. Loads of people still think that when someone refers to a transwoman they mean someone who's been through years of surgery and passes for a woman. Show them photos of real transwomen and they're horrified and start to understand what the problem is — or most do.

Good to hear that your cohort of young lawyers isn't so easily duped.

I think one of the most worrying revelations about this whole subject is the realisation that many people don't seem to think about things very deeply or apply logic or critical thought. It's happened in my own social circle. I'm a lesbian and I have lesbian friends, women who would swear they were feminists, who went along with TWAW for a while before I talked it through with them and they began to see how homophobic trans ideology is.

Cornana Thu 11-Jun-20 23:44:10

True, all my friends think of transwomen as heavily passing and having had surgery. These people are in the latter though, for sure, at least online.

Most of my friends are perfectly rational about these issues who do Law, however a lot of my other friends who have not gone into the same field I have, have very different views and I have to make a massive effort to be politically correct.

I am also a lesbian, and it is amazing how many of my lesbian friends will repeat “TWAW” until it comes to the idea of dating transwomen- I think this is the point where people begin to see sense, as being told your sexuality has to include men doesn’t normally go down well.

OP’s posts: |
iswhois Thu 11-Jun-20 23:48:14

Defiantly.

Most people don't understand/ know about the GRA

Also most people assume that all trans folk are fully transitioned to the point you can't tell the difference. The men who walk around town in ill fitted underwear and dresses are just considered strange people, when pressed that these individuals are in the eyes society trans women it causes confusion and disbelief.

RoosterPie Thu 11-Jun-20 23:50:31

Outside of Twitter I don’t think most people do agree with them, but yes, of those that do I think you’re right

FluffBalled Thu 11-Jun-20 23:53:04

Poor them, life so hard all that surgery.

Stonewall's own stats say over 90% have no intention of ever having surgery, these are men with penis in women's wards/prisons and refuges we are talking about.

What?!?! No can't have that, that can't be allowed surely!?

OneEpisode Thu 11-Jun-20 23:55:05

I’ve seen noobs ask what JK did that was transphobic. and they are told she said lots of hateful stuff, but having done all that evil and set it loose, killing all the trans kids, JK has deleted the evidence, so if the nice TRA hasn’t educated the noob, they would never have known who the villainess was. But now they’ve been educated Down With That Kind Of Thing.

Doyoumind Thu 11-Jun-20 23:56:09

Yes. I don't think most people in the real world when faced with the facts agree. I think the majority that go along with it are uniformed. That's based on personal experience and a lot of time on Twitter.

The ones who I really cannot take are the intersectional feminists et al who do know what they are talking about but are happy to throw away everything that has been achieved so far for women.

FluffBalled Thu 11-Jun-20 23:58:40

It is very biased of the press to report concerns around sexism using the misrepresentative word "transphobic", most people scan headlines and don't get any further.

AlecTrevelyan006 Fri 12-Jun-20 00:05:23

Yes. And most people criticising JKR are doing so on the basis of having read the headlines and maybe the first paragraph of the associated story rather than source material. The 'news' is not what JKR said, but the reactions it garnered, and that in turn is what most people are commenting on.

It's always been the way to a large extent with the mainstream media, but 24/7 rolling news and social media has exacerbated things.

MaleficentsCrow Fri 12-Jun-20 00:14:47

Yes, I agree with you OP.

Men in my life, well they seem to just say "it's a bloke in a dress that's lopped his cock off, but whatever, they are only harming themselves" but then I explain to them that the person they are describing 90% do not have their penises removed and want to be in a room with me whilst I get naked, they switch, and the line "well that's not right!you can't be in a room with a naked man" Comes out

Women in my life are split, some are too scared of the TRA's to speak out but are fully braced with the facts of what is at steak here. But the majority are TWAW, and then once you delve in to the intricate details of GC, 50% have a lightbulb moment but have to join the secret club and the other 40% seem to just say yeah it's wrong, but it won't happen will it , government won't let that happen🤦🏻‍♀️ and 10% shout TERF. 🙄

FluffBalled Fri 12-Jun-20 00:31:52

Imagine if all the headlines stated

"JK Rowling sexism row continues - author under attack for claiming women have rights"

contactusdeletus Fri 12-Jun-20 00:32:49

Yes. LGB people have spent decades arguing for our rights and shedding a light on the homophobia we face. Feminists have spent centuries doing the same for women.

Most people think "transphobia" is a combination of these two things. They don't really know that both the above groups have major issues with the transgender movement in its current form. If they did, they would rethink their unconditional support.

This is why the movement goes to such extreme lengths to silence criticism from these two groups especially. Women are threatened to keep us silent and LGB people are pushed to the fringes of our own community. Because we threaten them the most.

We have the power to expose them, and take away a lot of the unthinking good will that has allowed them to progress so far, so fast. Without that, they would have to fall back on reasoned debate to win their battles - and as we've seen time and time again, that is not their forte.

Cattenberg Fri 12-Jun-20 01:19:48

I used to think Mumsnet was very transphobic. I have a trans colleague and it doesn’t bother me that she uses the women’s toilets. I don’t believe for a moment that she transitioned more then 15 years ago in order to “perve on women in the toilets”, as someone on here once put it. I’m careful to use my colleague’s preferred name and pronouns, out of common courtesy.

In the 90s, I read several articles featuring male cross dressers and often, their female partners. All of the cross dressers had the same message. They were not transsexual and did not want to transition. They were heterosexual and most of them were happily married to a woman (yes, I know that gay cross dressers also exist). They all said that they dressed in woman’s clothes from time to time because it made them feel good.

It was Mumsnet that made me realise that the message had changed. It wasn’t just people with gender dysphoria who were trans. Cross dressers were also trans. And all trans women were women, including those such as Debbie Hayton who believe it isn’t possible to change sex. I saw a man arguing with Debbie Hayton on Twitter the other day, saying he had no respect for her work and would continue to fight for her rights. A rather strange example of mansplaining.

I know that some people have gender dysphoria, that this is very painful, and I strongly believe that these people deserve support and understanding.

I still believe that most trans people are no threat to anyone and just want to get on with their lives in peace. But I’ve also seen many trans rights activists threaten any woman who disagrees with them online. I’ve seen rape threats (one aimed at a 15-year-old girl), and various threats of violence “punch a TERF day”, “kill a TERF”. I’ve seen intimidating photos of people looming over the camera with raised baseball bats (supposedly a TERF’s “point of view”). Not to mention the male-bodied person who showed a worrying interest in adolescent girls, and hoped that that when they went into a women’s changing room, they would see women “with their tits hanging out”. And another male-bodied person who boasted about masturbating in women’s toilets to get back at TERFS.

I agree that trans people may not always be safe or comfortable in the toilets and changing rooms corresponding with their genetic sex, and II think society has a duty to protect them. But I think the best solution is for them to have their own safe spaces, so that women and girls don’t feel frightened or uncomfortable either.

I don’t believe that biological sex is irrelevant or something we shouldn’t be allowed to discuss. I don’t agree that male sex offenders should be able to self-identify into women’s prisons, or that trans women should be able to compete in women’s sports (both are happening now). I don’t agree with the circular logic that anyone who says they are a woman has always been one, regardless of their biology. So what is a woman then?

DancelikeEmmaGoldman Fri 12-Jun-20 01:29:44

TRA’s are actively discouraging people from reading her essay. And people I know have disparaged her as transphobic because someone said so. So yes.

All it takes for outrage to occur is for enough woke SJWs to not read an essay.

sessell Fri 12-Jun-20 01:57:57

I really do think so. I kicked off a discussion about JKRs tweets and misogynistic backlash on FB. There was a lot of noise, but no solid arguments. I've seen these people posting their self righteous authoritarian views and not previously had the courage to say anything. But when pushed there barely any substance. Feelz. But not for JKR. It's made me think that those views while noisy are built on sand. They'll wash away when the bubble bursts. I think the backlash is growing. Most comments under MSM articles have been supportive of JKR and critical of the bullying slebs. It's made a lot more people think and got backs up. People really don't like being told what to think, especially when they can see so clearly that it is nonsense.

Goosefoot Fri 12-Jun-20 02:00:31

Yes, that' my experience. Quite a lot don't know much about it at all but are passively supportive, and are shocked when they find out.

Others are more active, but many just take for granted the stats they see, the stuff they hear from clinics, and what they hear from organisations they consider to be good ones.

FluffBalled Fri 12-Jun-20 02:29:49

I live in Scotland.

Not too far from me a 12 year old girl was sexually assaulted in the middle of the day in supermarket toilets by a man. She punched him in the balls and fought her way out of there. (brave brave child).

The crime was reported as a female crime and the perpetrator housed in a woman's refuge. The child's parent took the story to the press so incensed by the misreporting of the attack and the false impression being given to the public that the attacker was female.

Facts matter.

FluffBalled Fri 12-Jun-20 02:38:17

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/819644/mum-of-supermarket-toilet-sex-assault-victim-warns-freed-attacker-could-strike-again/

Sorry my mistake, a 10 year old was attacked. Look at how the reporter twists into knots trying to describe (not to) the sex of the attacker.

Misleading press is a huge problem, legal fiction causes more hassle than it is worth and creates further danger for women and girls. It is no wonder the public are confused.

TehBewilderness Fri 12-Jun-20 03:42:36

The vast majority of people do think that genital surgery is involved in being designated trans, whereas in reality only a tiny number of male have genital surgery. Most have breast implants and hair removal and call it good.
People are often shocked to hear that over 85% of transwomen have intact male genitals and are heterosexual. They were convince there was no danger to women and girls because they thought transwomen were Gay males who had their penis removed in order to marry their partner.

GinasWig Fri 12-Jun-20 04:05:50

I used to defend trans rights, spout twaw. Then i read the feminists threads on here. Yes, definitely lack of knowledge..the T being grouped with LGB made me feel like since im pro lgb i must be pro trans and any challenge to anything that relates to trans is bigotry. 🤦🏼‍♀️

TehBewilderness Fri 12-Jun-20 05:18:27

Transgender advocacy maintains the social hierarchy while redefining homophobia and misogyny as progressive.

Awning10 Fri 12-Jun-20 07:55:35

DP (who is fairly well read and up to date with current issues) believed until recently that transwomen were extremely effeminate, non threatening gay men with severe gender dysphoria.

langclegflavoredbananamush Fri 12-Jun-20 08:21:06

I hadn’t engaged on the issue much, but I was pretty much willing to go along withTWAW, to the point of mentally policing pronouns when thinking about the couple of transwomen I thought about. I might still be doing that now if I hadn’t come across an article on a tangentially related topic from a reasonable author, the comments of which had a TRA pile on. I wondered what was going on...and well.
The vitriol of the TRAs is very effective at silencing people, (thus promoting lack of knowledge) but I’m hoping we’re approaching full backfire stage. I’ve had the feeling that some of them have been trying to tone it down a bit recently, anyone else think so?

RufustheLanglovingreindeer Fri 12-Jun-20 08:30:00

Yes i agree with you

I said to ds1 partner and ds2 that JKR had been accused of transphobia and that she hadn’t said anything

They both tried to explain that it was probably that she’d ‘liked’ someone else’s transphobic tweet, i got ds1 to back me up as he’d read it

But i think they (and others) see the headline as it were, and if you are accused of transphobia or homophobia or racism you obviously are those things....cos the media and social media have said so

Happens on here...you get a poster A saying ‘poster B said that ....’ and i take the time to go check and more often than Not poster A is FUCKING LYING

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