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Define Trans in this whole Jkr-dr debate

(28 Posts)
sourcreamnchives Wed 10-Jun-20 13:50:18

Hi feminists 💪
So I consider myself and always have done a feminist. However, I have a gay son and so am very tuned into the whole LGBT ideology. I would never go to countries, for example, whose whole ideology is based on female suppression and oppression. I would not pay into their economies. For the same reasons I avoid holidaying in countries whose stance on being gay is at odds with our own. There are so many layers to peel off (and potentially to make your head explode) in this GC debate I almost don't know where to start. But I have been reflecting this week on how I feel about what DR said (lots of expletives in here - I am fully behind JKR). Having been very vocal myself about the sheer unfairness and utter disrespect to women athletes when allowing trans men to compete against them (but that's a whole other arm of this debate) this week's debates have forced me to examine many of the other contentious issues and opposing viewpoints.
I firstly have to separate however what we are talking about in this debate. Trans women who have had surgery and live as women - and those who have not (and many who have never intended to but live as women). If you said the first category 'is a woman' I would agree. I would also not mind or care/feel uncomfortable undressing in a changing room with them or being in the same hospital bay. However, the same cannot be said for the latter group. And those, in my opinion, are not women. Does this mean then that by accepting the first category as women I am essentially betraying my own sex? I can't see that. But I can see it relative to the second category. I feel they are two very different angles. But maybe I am naive. I just know how I feel. From a completely different angle - if women have a culture - which of course they do - how is it ok to say AWAT when that ridiculous white woman who decided one day she felt like 'becoming a black person' and proceeded to physically change her appearance to then say she was black - caused understandable uproar. So that's not ok. But saying you are a woman because you feel like one is? Please understand I am playing devil's advocate here to test theories. Can ppl please separate out (if this is possible) how they feel about trans who have completely transitioned and those that have not and maybe will not. Interested in all your views.

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popehilarious Wed 10-Jun-20 13:54:18

To define transgender you'd need to define 'gender' in a way that everyone is satisfied with and explain how to accurately find out what your gender is. I've yet to see that.

Here's a good start if you haven't read it already: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

You are trying to find a middle ground. I think we all are/were at some point.

popehilarious Wed 10-Jun-20 13:55:57

I also found this article a good read a while ago:
medium.com/*@aytchellis*/clockwise-from-top-transgender-youtuber-kat-blaque-transgender-model-munroe-bergdorf-8ef1b27c1610

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons Wed 10-Jun-20 14:09:40

“live as women“
Break this down - what does it mean because all I can find are sexist assumptions & cultural assumptions about names.

Single sex spaces are no longer single sex if any males are allowed access; regardless of how much surgery or how nice the male in question is their presence makes that space mixed sex.

Many women do not want to share women’s spaces with any males - I choose those women over males. Consent is not transferable.

sourcreamnchives Wed 10-Jun-20 14:09:58

@popehilarious thank you! Shocked to see that only 15% of trans women have had surgery/fully transitioned. Also note the two different categories. So based on autogynephilia (Cat 2) I do NOT believe the TWAW statement. I guess that makes me seem 'TERF' or 'anti trans' and that is the stick they use to beat us with and silence our voices. Oppressed historically by the right wing and suppressed currently by the left - once again women are at the bottom of the pile. 😡🤬

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Gncq Wed 10-Jun-20 14:31:08

I think the problem is that most women start at a place where they have no problem at all with fully transitioned transsexuals who are just trying to blend in and get on in life.

Their use of women's spaces was accepted and there was a type of honour system based on mutual respect and trust.

Unfortunately that honour system has been completely blown out of the water by trans activist's demands. Don't forget, most trans activists aren't even trans they're just beardy woke blokes or maniacs like Adrian Harrop, who absolutely love the idea of sticking it to women in the name of trans "acceptance". They've fucked it right up for actual transsexuals.

Your second group tend to be aggressive AGPs who's sexual desire to be thought of as a woman overrides everything else. They love their dick, they fancy women, want to be called women, envy women with a passion, and these are the ones driving the current shit show.

Unfortunately I have had to come to the conclusion that NO males, not even the lovely fully transitioned one's should have ANY right to woman's spaces.

This has to be the best position because look at what happens when you "give an inch".

The "honour system" was never enshrined in law. It was a mutual unwritten agreement, and that was fine with me.
Women should have the right to reject any male from using a woman only service or space without needing to justify herself.

Gncq Wed 10-Jun-20 14:33:35

I think it's less than 5% have had "bottom surgery". Most common surgeries are face and tits.

sourcreamnchives Wed 10-Jun-20 14:34:22

Thanks @gncq I think I'm
Getting the idea now. It's certainly a blood pressure trigger 🤔

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ScrimpshawTheSecond Wed 10-Jun-20 14:36:46

Gncq describes the situation perfectly. 100%.

TW are not women. The clue is in the name. 'Those who would have us believe absurdities ...'

Annasgirl Wed 10-Jun-20 14:42:47

Well you see, here is where we differ - I can fully accept that someone who is what we used to term a transexual has a right to live their life in peace and have full employment and every other right of humans, I still do not believe (how could I?) that they are a woman since they still retain the biology at the cellular level of being a man. So for people like that person, we perhaps need a third space in public loos and in changing rooms (although I would share a changing area with this person, and a loo, I would not share a refuge, or a rape crisis room etc with this person and so that is why I think we cannot cross a line as if we give in on one thing, we give in on all).

But here is where we are at, when I was a child and a teen and even a young adult, we were all happy to live and let live with transexual women because they did not really invade women's space. However, the last decade (perhaps last 15 years) has seen an explosion in men who want to use the lives and gains of the first transexual men as a way of eroding the lives of women (those of us who are, and always will be, XX). So if anyone has cause for complaint, it is women, first, and original transexuals second, who have now been thrown into a spotlight as the Trojan horse to get men who have no interest ever in having surgery, the right to 100% access to and control over women (XX) only spaces. And this is where I come to the side of women only - we are the ones who need these spaces and who need to stand firm to defend these spaces.

Annasgirl Wed 10-Jun-20 14:43:56

or as was better said by GNCQ blush

Alyssum34456 Wed 10-Jun-20 14:44:15

I'm not sure at all. My head spins. I just wish we could discuss is openly without being shouted down like we are some kind of Hitler.

sourcreamnchives Wed 10-Jun-20 14:45:04

I also don't think the majority of ppl who agree with DR are aware of these figures. Or else they are and say nothing. Which is a whole lot worse

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Alyssum34456 Wed 10-Jun-20 14:45:50

I think terminology should be discussed at least, forgetting anything further. Why Dan Rad had to encourage the view that discussing terminology is transphobic is beyond me and very disappointing.

sourcreamnchives Wed 10-Jun-20 14:50:09

Why are we deemed to be 'radical' feminists (and why is that even so despised anyway?) when all we want is safe spaces? Why is everyone so terrified to speak out (except Paula Radcliffe and JKR, Posie Parker)

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Z0rr0 Wed 10-Jun-20 14:52:13

Also what GNCQ said. I was there like a month or so ago (and TWAW like a year ago) but the TRAs push so hard there becomes no room to accommodate anyone because if you draw the line at transsexuals then you get the 'oh will you check everyone's genitals' argument, so the line has to be drawn at none or all, so I vote none. Sorry trans women who I used to want to include. The TRAs fecked you over too.

RuffleCrow Wed 10-Jun-20 14:56:41

Afaict it's not enough just to call yourself trans or have gender reassignment. If it were, Miranda Yardley (who has transitioned) would be fully accepted by the T/MRA community. You have to also subscribe to an ideology which places the word of male people above the word of female people and seeks to silence women that don't comply with this.

popehilarious Wed 10-Jun-20 15:25:11

Yes that's true. There is the concept of "true trans" or "truscum" who are openly harassed and abused by TRAs.

ScrimpshawTheSecond Wed 10-Jun-20 15:57:11

Why Dan Rad had to encourage the view that discussing terminology is transphobic is beyond me

You may notice that a big part of TRA ideology is insisting that it's totally verboten to question or discuss any of the issues involved.

It was, for a long while, 'no debate' and 'deal with it' or 'get over it'. Also 'acceptance without exception'.

That hasn't quite worked, though, but we've still got people trying to insist that anybody who questions the clearly nonsense mantra of 'trans women are women' is bigoted and evil. And nobody wants to be bigoted or evil, do they?

I've seen it described here as a 'thought-killing' cliche. I think that's quite accurate. But it only works in the short term. Because eventually cognitive dissonance niggles away at you, like a tiny little splinter, and suddenly one day you find yourself looking at Munroe Bergdord standing on stage and telling women loudly and angrily not to mention their vaginas, and almost by accident, thinking - 'hold on a minute, you what, mate?'

And then the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

GinasWig Thu 11-Jun-20 05:56:59

Mental illness and fetish

ginandbearit Thu 11-Jun-20 06:10:10

I was trying to explain the general concerns about TWAW to my woke ish nephew, who is a petrol head ...he suddenly got it , and in his own words .."oh , they're Replica Women ..like a replica Ferrari..bodywork looks the same but inside is a Ford Fiesta engine.."
Maybe a bit brutal but thats the gist of it .

GinasWig Thu 11-Jun-20 06:15:30

They dont even look the same. Even babies can tell.

ahumanfemale Thu 11-Jun-20 06:18:58

sour **

Why are we deemed to be 'radical' feminists (and why is that even so despised anyway?) when all we want is safe spaces? Why is everyone so terrified to speak out (except Paula Radcliffe and JKR, Posie Parker)

The word radical actually means "to the roots". Radical feminism recognised that patriarchy is so deeply ingrained in society that in order to shift it, it's necessary to go back to the roots - it's not a superficial aspect of society.

NotAssigned Thu 11-Jun-20 06:42:39

Even if you were inclined to let in certain transwomen-and I am not - how would you tell? You can't do genital checks at the door. The only possible solution is complete sex segregation. And for clarity no one has ever succeeded in changing sex.

The other problem is that you cannot be in a position where a policy essentially coerces someone to undergo medical treatment.

The only solution is third spaces. But many TW don't want this as it does not resolve their need for validation and it does not fulfil their sexual fetish.

BabyLlamaZen Fri 12-Jun-20 12:56:14

There are a lot of comments here about fetish. Do we have any proof of this or is this just assumption?

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