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'BBC: 'Eleven transgender inmates sexually assaulted in male prisons last year'

(79 Posts)
missproportionate Thu 21-May-20 12:20:51

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

I haven't seen a thread about this but I find it hard to get my head round.

"of 124 sexual assaults in five women's jails over the previous nine years, from 2010 to 2018, seven had been carried out by trans prisoners.'

Also I just can't get the stats right in my head from the way they are quoted. The semantics are twisted in knots, and anyone not familiar with any of this would find it impenetrable.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-May-20 12:24:24

If TW are unsafe in male prisons (which I think is what the article is saying?) the answer is not to put them in female prisons.

nauticant Thu 21-May-20 12:30:17

People have commented a fair amount about these numbers. Just to give one example of why these bare numbers will tell you nothing is this: would the term "trans prisoners" include male prisoners with a GRC who identify as women or would they be classed as "women prisoners"?

DodoPatrol Thu 21-May-20 12:34:13

Are those statistics unexpected?

That is, are a disproportionate number of trans prisoners assaulted in men’s prisons, compared with the number of prisoners assaulted in general?

Are a disproportionate number of offences in women’s prisons committed by male inmates?

The numbers they give don’t seem to add up, so the article itself isn’t much help.

CuriousaboutSamphire Thu 21-May-20 12:51:10

Wait! I have read that about 5 times now and still cannot unscramble those figures!

As nauticant said, it is impossible to tell what the truth is

The figures on how many transgender prisoners there are in jail, is, apparently, only those who self ID as they did not include prisoners who had transitioned from their birth gender and who have a full Gender Recognition Certificate.

BUT... the assaults?? Ms Frazer said the total included those who were born female but identified as men, non-binary or intersex, as well as people who were male by birth and now identified as female.

So, how many trans prisoner were assaulted? Any time period? 11 Last year alone?

12.5 a year sexual assaults on women, using their number to give an average. 7 by trans prisoners.. which leads us back to the quesyon is that with and withouht a GRC?

And ONE of the cases was White who assaulted TWO women. So is that 1 or 2 instances??

So, I am assuming that nobody actually knows!!

Hardly robust!

Ereshkigalangcleg Thu 21-May-20 12:56:09

How many other male prisoners were sexually assaulted by other men in prison? I imagine it's something that vulnerable men face, and something the prison service needs to address better on a general basis.

Ereshkigalangcleg Thu 21-May-20 12:58:23

would the term "trans prisoners" include male prisoners with a GRC

The BBC says they wouldn't be included so I imagine that yes they would be counted as female in statistics, and either in the female estate or the special trans facility.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Thu 21-May-20 13:01:06

This isn't poor writing, the intent is to baffle but leave people with the impression that the solution is to put prisoners wherever they'd prefer.

NooneElseIsSingingMySong Thu 21-May-20 13:03:34

there were 163 transgender prisoners in jails in England and Wales, 29 in men's prisons and 34 in women's prisons, an increase of 30 on 2018.....erm, maths was never my strong suit but 29+34 does not add up to 163!

It sounds like they have tied themselves in knots trying to present this is a certain way that it makes no sense.

CuriousaboutSamphire Thu 21-May-20 13:09:43

Glad it wasn't just me... but somewhat incensed that such flummery and obfuscation is given any air time whatsoever!

Ereshkigalangcleg Thu 21-May-20 13:09:58

YY, kittens. The trans lobby's stats "Stonewall was disappointed" are always so dishonest and unreliable. There's always some element missing in order to mislead.

Ereshkigalangcleg Thu 21-May-20 13:11:41

there were 163 transgender prisoners in jails in England and Wales, 29 in men's prisons and 34 in women's prisons, an increase of 30 on 2018.....erm, maths was never my strong suit but 29+34 does not add up to 163!

It adds up to 63 so it looks like they meant to say 129 in men's prisons.

CuriousaboutSamphire Thu 21-May-20 13:19:46

OK. Email sent. Written so as not to assume I am in any way transphobic! Which I am obviously not...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

This news story, about transgender prisoners. Could someone have a look at it please and work out just what the figures included actually mean?

Specifically: how can you tell which prisoners, which assaults were perpetrated by people who were born female?

There is an amazing amount of obfuscation here, the facts and figures are nigh on impossible to unravel. It is impossible to tell if trans prisoners are more or less likely to be assaulted, to be the assaulter, are or not designated 'female' in the stats, with or without a GRC.

How can we tell how vulnerable trans people are if we cannot gather data that makes any sense?

Michelleoftheresistance Thu 21-May-20 13:22:56

Agree; how many non trans male prisoners were sexually assaulted in male prisons last year? Particularly since this is the rabbit always pulled out of the hat to discourage anyone questioning the number of TW prisoners who have sexually assaulted female prisoners?

More evidence that trans specific units need to be created. Protect vulnerable males. Unless (as usual) this is being pushed to try and illustrate why the privacy, dignity and safety of female prisoners should be destroyed to make TW prisoners safer and happier. Only a sacrifice of the females will appease.

missproportionate Thu 21-May-20 13:31:36

Glad its not me. Anyone would think they didn't want to make it clear (emoji of me with finger to lips looking at sky)

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-May-20 13:33:27

Curious

Yes, that isn't clear, how can two attacks be counted as one case?

Last week, ministers revealed that out of 124 sexual assaults in five women's jails over the previous nine years, from 2010 to 2018, seven had been carried out by trans prisoners.

They make it clear in the article that the trans prisoners were sexually assaulted by male prisoners, but when talking about sexual attacks in female prisons they just say the number of sexual attacks but not who carried out the attacks, apart from saying the number of attacks carried out by trans prisoners.

Ereshkigalangcleg Thu 21-May-20 13:47:18

Also how do the BBC numbers fit with these?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

ScrimpshawTheSecond Thu 21-May-20 13:48:42

Can't make head nor tail of that.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Thu 21-May-20 13:50:14

hit send to soon.Do the attacks in the female estate by trans prisoners include trans prisoners with a GRC?

CuriousaboutSamphire Thu 21-May-20 13:52:17

No idea at all! There's no point of reference between the stats!

They are just a random jumble of numbers taken from any number of reports with no internal coherence, no common baseline. Nonsensical waste of time and effort!

Kantastic Thu 21-May-20 14:00:50

Last week, ministers revealed that out of 124 sexual assaults in five women's jails over the previous nine years, from 2010 to 2018, seven had been carried out by trans prisoners.

So on average there are less than three sexual assaults in each women's prison each year. Karen White alone was responsible for four sexual assaults.

I would very much like to know the rates PER YEAR from 2010 to 2018- and whether it's increasing exponentially. Would be good to know the 2019 figures as well.

Kantastic Thu 21-May-20 14:01:31

Does anyone have the original source for that women's prison statistic?

CuriousaboutSamphire Thu 21-May-20 14:03:37

from 2010 to 2018 God, I didn't even do my own maths right, did I blush

15.5 a year sexual assaults on women, though obviously we have no idea if all the women involved were female.

Kantastic Thu 21-May-20 14:08:20

Another reason for not putting the year on year figures of sexual assaults in women's prisons, besides disguising any rise in the numbers, is that it prevents anyone from asking the obvious question: is a transwoman in a woman's jail more likely to commit an assault, than a transwoman in a man's jail is to be assaulted?

Would be nice to see the BBC's sources - the GRC issue might stop us getting a definitive answer to that question, but then again it might not.

merrymouse Thu 21-May-20 14:24:14

The total number of transgender victims far exceeds the number who were suspected of carrying out sex attacks, with only one such case in 2019.

1). Only 5% of the UK prison population is female, so the figures aren't comparable. If you scale up the the 2019 figure in the women's population to take account of size, you get 1 x 100/5 = 20.

2). They are comparing numbers of attackers to numbers of victims, and haven't clarified how many women were attacked by this 1 person in 2019.

3). They do not make it clear that attacks in the male estate are alleged attacks until later in the article but immediately compare 'victims' in the male estate to 'suspected attacks' in the female estate.

4). They give context for sexual assaults in the women's estate - 7/124, but not in the men's estate.

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