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Julia Long article on the 'meaningful transition'

(174 Posts)
Cascade220 Tue 12-May-20 16:47:19

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R0wantrees Tue 12-May-20 17:11:10

Jennifer Bilek’s important recent article on ‘good transwomen’ has initiated a long-overdue conversation about the role and influence of ‘transsexuals’ within gender critical spaces.

Uncomonground Media by Jennifer Bilek
May 6th
'Deconstructing the “Good Transwomen”
Transwomen who recognise the misogyny inherent in transgender and transsexual activism must still confront the objectification of women they participate in.'
uncommongroundmedia.com/deconstructing-the-good-transwomen/

BustedWench Tue 12-May-20 18:24:21

Superb article

Ereshkigalangcleg Tue 12-May-20 18:33:19

Bookmarked both to read later.

vaginafetishist Tue 12-May-20 18:59:02

Julia is right about this, shame she is vilified for speaking out.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro Tue 12-May-20 20:58:48

An excellent read by Julia Long.

The inclusion of men into women's rights group is a disaster for women and girls.

Cascade220 Tue 12-May-20 21:03:50

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Ameanstreakamilewide Tue 12-May-20 22:33:40

That article is dynamite!

ChemiseBleu Tue 12-May-20 23:08:30

I agree with this article.

It’s the ‘thin edge of the wedge’...

Going back say 20 years to when there was a vanishingly small number of transsexuals then I guess most women didn’t think it was a big deal for those with GRC’s to access women’s facilities.

I didn’t I know - but I feel differently now as there are so many seemingly under the ‘trans’ umbrella.

Important to remember that Germaine Greer left her Cambridge Women’s College when a transsexual joined the staff.

In the NASUWT teacher’s guidance which is referenced in the article (Debbie Hayton contributed to it) and which I was reading the other day I was shocked to read about an example of a male teacher who likes to dress as a woman outside work - apparently they should be able to use the women’s toilets at a staff party?!?!

Can someone take this guidance to a judicial review??

AnyOldPrion Tue 12-May-20 23:44:46

Going back say 20 years to when there was a vanishingly small number of transsexuals then I guess most women didn’t think it was a big deal for those with GRC’s to access women’s facilities.

It’s been pointed out on these boards before, but Whittle, Burns et al have gone through medical and surgical processes to help them appear more like the sex they’d prefer to be, and they have been central to the position we now find ourselves in.

Seahorses and Trojan horses are horses, as they say.

stumbledin Tue 12-May-20 23:49:42

I think the points she is making are valid.

However, the way she presents it is counterproductive.

Its the sort of thing that leftie groups do. Attack a group that is getting more attention than them.

If you believe in your arguements / analysis you should be able to make them without trying to say people who dont agree are some how to be despised.

Its like all those people on the left running round posting sound bites about how everyone who voted tory is why the national health is short of money. On one level that's true. But if the only other options of who to vote for are very convincing you cant then make them for not being convinced the problem. You need to think about why you aren't convincing.

Teabaseddiet Tue 12-May-20 23:56:21

I admire Julia and agree with a lot of things that she says (including the problem with embracing trans women at the expenses of their exes).

But it's such a hostile position - kind of my way or the highway - and I think that can alienate people even more.

Staffori Wed 13-May-20 00:14:25

I agree with Julia's position but I wish she hadn't made it so personal about two trans people in particular or brought Debbie's wife into it. I have seen Debbie shift quite some over the past couple of years. I think it is helpful having Debbie and Kristina standing up for our side because - unfortunate but true - they convince the fence-sitters that gc feminism is not all about transphobia but about protecting women's sex-based rights. And they get a lot of flak from TRAs as well as from radfems. If I was either of them, I dont think I'd have the courage to keep speaking out. That doesn't mean we can't criticise them when we disagree but we don't have to do it in such a nasty way.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro Wed 13-May-20 05:28:46

they convince the fence-sitters that gc feminism is not all about transphobia but about protecting women's sex-based rights

How can someone like hayton convince anyone about protecting sex based rights when he actively campaigns to remove them?

How can organisations claim to be focused on women's sex based rights when they support hayton, and by extension his trans rights activism?

When groups embrace these men, they are saying that it is possible for men to be women. They cannot do this and support womens sex based rights.

TinselAngel Wed 13-May-20 08:02:35

Staffori at least honestly articulates the choice being made by feminists when platforms are given to transexual "allies". Their value as an anti bigot pass is seen as greater politically than any potential contribution to the movement from the women in their lives.

This excludes trans widows from feminist spaces, and children and female relations of transitioners, in order to frame an argument that is acceptable to the left (who will not care and call you a bigot anyway).

A feminist movement that prioritises any males over any females is ultimately not going to be working in the interests of women, even if it sincerely believes that it is.

Being acceptable to the left is being prioritised over outcomes for women and girls, and looking after women's rights begins at home.

We certainly shouldn't ignore Dr Hayton's wife just because it may be politically inconvenient.

Who would you rather have on this board: me (supporting trans widows and giving the perspective of somebody who has seen this from the inside), or my ex (enabling you to not feel like a bigot)? It's a simple choice.

TinselAngel Wed 13-May-20 08:13:04

Additionally, if you centre an AGP person in a feminist movement it honestly beggars belief when you start to actually give it some thought.

AGP is not a benign, solo activity, it is actively detrimental to women either directly because actual women are coerced into participating (see trans widows threads passim) or indirectly because it mimics and fetishises a patriarchal view of female sexuality.

Also women outside the relationship are unwittingly playing along with the fetish when the AGP individual is out and about in female spaces, which of course, includes feminism.

WTFSeriously Wed 13-May-20 08:36:47

* Being acceptable to the left is being prioritised over outcomes for women and girls, and looking after women's rights begins at home.*

This sums up entirely why there's glacial progress within some circles as they extend time & energy dancing around ways to ensure acceptable presentation/language/discourse while others are hitting at the very essence of why male inclusion at any/all cost is harmful & impacts women & girls.

The real progress is happening where the challenge is being made on claims & assumed rights to the detriment of women & girls because the decisions made behind closed doors at the behest of lobbyists were made within the context of not considering women & girls as relevant where they were directly involved. No doubt in no small part because those who think themselves compassionate & progressives felt compelled to not flag up the bleeding obvious over what was being demanded. Safeguarding be damned when you can't highlight the risk factors of male inclusion to 'be kind'.

FlaviaAlbiaWantsLangClegBack Wed 13-May-20 08:42:59

Philosophically I agree with her. Practically, I think playing politics like A Women's Place does is the best way to engage and change minds and policies.

It's too big of a leap for people who start off "being kind" to this position. It's reached gradually and the tactics women's place use help them get there. If they close their ears before that first message can sink in, then nothing will change.

TinselAngel Wed 13-May-20 08:47:12

Which policies do you think WPUK has changed, FlaviaAlbiaWantsLangClegBack ?

testing987654321 Wed 13-May-20 08:48:28

I think it is helpful having Debbie and Kristina standing up for our side because - unfortunate but true - they convince the fence-sitters that gc feminism is not all about transphobia but about protecting women's sex-based rights.

Fuck that. It's not possible to avoid accusations of transphobia, anything other than complete capitulation gets you called a bigot.

They are not women and are not interested in women's sex-based rights.

FlaviaAlbiaWantsLangClegBack Wed 13-May-20 08:52:52

I think the gradual back off from self ID by political parties has been influenced by the publicity they've brought to the issue.

Fair Play for Women too. A lot of well researched stats and an engaging and articulate spokeswoman make the issue easier to discuss.

TinselAngel Wed 13-May-20 08:57:08

I think the gradual back off from self ID by political parties has been influenced by the publicity they've brought to the issue.

Couldn't this have been done without centring males though?

BustedWench Wed 13-May-20 08:58:13

Interesting that the tories are the party to do that, not Labour of whom WPUK are always trying to convince.

TinselAngel Wed 13-May-20 09:01:51

* Interesting that the tories are the party to do that, not Labour of whom WPUK are always trying to convince.*

Excellent point. I'm pretty certain Dominic Cummings doesn't give a shiny shit whether the transexual "allies" agree with him or not.

FlaviaAlbiaWantsLangClegBack Wed 13-May-20 09:03:49

Possibly, but politics is a game, not a pure calling.

I do think Labour party is a trainwreck full stop at the minute looking at it from outside England.

Fair enough if you disagree. I just think it's natural that people won't share the same experiences or beliefs even if they are aiming at a common goal.

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