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preferred pronounce and compelled speech

(17 Posts)
skql Sun 03-May-20 09:38:57

people should follow preferred pronounce against their will?

as i know, in canada, after jordan peterson and megan murphy,
it literally used as self id.

but even if there's self id, it's still compelled speech i think.
'be kind, then i use that by my free will' it's ok, good.
'i can't. because i don't think that.' this have to be punished?

but when someone calls bio woman 'he' or bio man 'her'
it's still someone's free speech, isn't it?

OP’s posts: |
OhHolyJesus Sun 03-May-20 10:03:40

Compelled speech to me is forcing you to say something you do not believe or isn't true, so preferred pronouns are compelled speech and that's why I don't use them.

TBG I'm not really asked to and word things carefully sometimes (which is also sort of compelled speech) but I don't know any 'trans' people personally where it would become a problem.

MrGHardy Sun 03-May-20 11:25:12

I will never blindly use "preferred pronouns". Haven't had to yet in real life, but this is most certainly compelled speech akin to being forced to acknowledge God. "Preferred pronouns" are based on the ideology that people have a gendered brain/soul. That is an absurd ideology and I will not pander to it.

Zhuleva Sun 03-May-20 11:39:36

I won't go along with it either. I'll just find a way around having to use them - which, as @OhHolyJesus says is a form of compelled speech in itself.

I'm dreading having a meeting at work (which others have had in other institutions) where everyone has to say their pronouns before the meeting starts. I fear this is going to happen all over the place as more people go along with this nonsense.

R0wantrees Sun 03-May-20 11:59:13

I'm dreading having a meeting at work (which others have had in other institutions) where everyone has to say their pronouns before the meeting starts. I fear this is going to happen all over the place as more people go along with this nonsense.

Draft Scottish Govt legislation uses that others refer to a person as she/her part of evidence that a person is both a woman & female.
Other evidence being that a person uses a 'female' name & title (Miss/Ms/Mrs?)

Scottish Legal
Published 21 April 2020
by Dr Kath Murray, Lisa Mackenzie and Lucy Hunter Blackburn
'Blog: Shifting sands on the definition of ‘woman’ in Scots law'
(extract)
"This expanded definition of ‘woman’ was introduced at stage 2 of the legislative process, following representations from the Scottish Trans Alliance. It brings within scope some people who have not changed their legal sex to ‘female’ using a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), and excludes some people who remain female in law (those transitioning to live as men, without a GRC).

In 2019 the Scottish government consulted on the implementation of the act. The consultation document included draft guidance, which set out examples of acceptable ‘evidence that the person was continuously living as a woman’, all of which are linguistic in nature:

“always using female pronouns; using a female name on official documents such as a driving licence or passport, or on utility bills or bank accounts; describing themselves and being described by others in written or other communication using female language.” (continues)

The debate, of course, goes far wider than the Public Boards Act. Defining who is a woman in law and policy has been the subject of intense debate in recent years. While the UK and Scottish governments have both paused their plans for reforming the Gender Recognition Act (GRA), all the main political parties support amending the GRA, and have at some point advocated that individuals should be able to change their legal sex by making a statutory declaration (often referred to as ‘self-ID’). For instance, speaking at an event on the political representation of women in 2018, Liberal Democrat President Sally Brinton stated that she would be happy with a ‘gender-balanced’ parliament made up of 50 per cent men and 50 per cent trans women.

Despite its earlier interest in consistency with the Equality Act 2010, the concerns raised about the definitions used in the GRPB Act 2018 have not caused the Scottish government to pause and the act will come fully into force at the end of next month. The planned guidance does not appear to have been issued yet, and the Scottish government has not commented on the points made in the consultation analysis."
www.scottishlegal.com/article/blog-shifting-sands-on-the-definition-of-woman-in-scots-law

Thinkingabout1t Sun 03-May-20 17:22:30

in 2018, Liberal Democrat President Sally Brinton stated that she would be happy with a ‘gender-balanced’ parliament made up of 50 per cent men and 50 per cent trans women.

And Jo Swinson, when she was Lib Dem leader last year, said people had the right to define their own gender and she supported self-ID. And Lib Dem MP Layla Moran says people with male bodies are women if they say they are, and she knows it's true because she can see people's souls.

Yet the Lib Dems get wiped out in every election and now have just 11 seats in parliament.... I wonder why?

R0wantrees Sun 03-May-20 17:34:24

in 2018, Liberal Democrat President Sally Brinton stated that she would be happy with a ‘gender-balanced’ parliament made up of 50 per cent men and 50 per cent trans women.

And Jo Swinson, when she was Lib Dem leader last year, said people had the right to define their own gender and she supported self-ID. And Lib Dem MP Layla Moran says people with male bodies are women if they say they are, and she knows it's true because she can see people's souls.

Important to recognise the males who have so much apparent influence on Lib Dem women & policy.

ThinEndoftheWedge Sun 03-May-20 20:37:35

Sal Brinton is very clued up on female peadophiles/sex offenders (minority) as an argument to open up single sex spaces to males who ‘identify’ as women, but is seemingly completely oblivious to male (the vast majority) paedophiles/sex offenders- with women/girls the vast majority of victims as an argument to why single sex spaces are needed. I expect she has never given the privacy/dignity aspect of single sex spaces a moment’s consideration.

Long may the Lib Dem’s stay an utter irrelevance.

Lordfrontpaw Tue 05-May-20 00:02:37

I was just reading about a shopper who managed to wangle $30k out of Zara because ‘they’ (non binary) were told that they couldn’t use changing rooms that ‘matched their gender’ (eh? So no changing room then?).

For the love of the wee man, we are supposed to pretend that sex doesn’t exist, sex segregated spaces don’t exist, and we are supposed to guess which changing room someone may wish to use?

When this lockdown is over, I’m going to go to Harrods, grab an armful of ballgowns... Look out for me on the guardian (with sad horse face photo).

Italiangreyhound Tue 05-May-20 00:51:44

R0wantrees very interested by your comments about Liberal Democrats and "...Lib Dem MP Layla Moran says people with male bodies are women if they say they are, and she knows it's true because she can see people's souls."

So I had a quick look, because this was a new one on me... and...

"Ms Moran has said she believes trans women are women. Mr Davies has said he believes that a person with a penis cannot be a woman.

Their exchange is here:

David T. C. Davies:

'I hear what the hon. Lady is saying. May I bluntly ask her whether she would be happy sharing a changing room with somebody who was born male and had a male body?'

Layla Moran:

'I believe that women are women, so if that person was a trans woman, I absolutely would. I just do not see the issue. As for whether they have a beard, which was one of the hon. Gentleman’s earlier comments, I dare say that some women have beards. There are all sorts of reasons why our bodies react differently to hormones. There are many forms of the human body. I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body.'

And that, in a nutshell, is the transgender debate. Remember, Ms Moran, an intelligent and educated member of Parliament was speaking in a debate about laws that help determine how and whether people with female bodies can chose to separate themselves from people with male bodies. I’ll repeat her key observation again, just for clarity:

'I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body.'"

Article finishes...

"But what about those women who do not possess Ms Moran’s remarkable gift, and who might just be a little concerned about the anatomy of the people they share changing rooms and bathrooms with? Women who might not subscribe to the fact-free, anti-evidence superstitious gibberish contained in talk of seeing souls? Women who might just consider material reality, biological fact and thousands of years of accumulated evidence about male violence, committed with male bodies, to actually matter? Women who might be left asking, if even MPs debate laws on sex and gender on the basis of 'souls' not bodies, what hope is there?

Sadly, Ms Moran did not say anything about those women who are not fortunate enough to share her special gift. Perhaps she’ll get to the next time MPs debate this issue."

www.spectator.co.uk/article/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate

Sadly, some of the people most letting girls and women down at this time, are other women and law must not be made on 'fact-free, anti-evidence superstitious gibberish'. sad angry

Italiangreyhound Tue 05-May-20 00:57:52

Long may the Lib Dem’s stay an utter irrelevance.

Indeed.

R0wantrees Tue 05-May-20 01:26:48

Sadly, some of the people most letting girls and women down at this time, are other women and law must not be made on 'fact-free, anti-evidence superstitious gibberish'.

Layla Moran MP puts on record her thanks to her friend & colleague Helen Belcher (Trans Media Watch, GIRES, LibDems etc) before speaking in that debate.

Helen Belcher has been very influential.

TyroSaysMeow Tue 05-May-20 12:52:36

What I'd like to ask Ms Moran is: can a person with a vagina be both trans and a woman? Got my rant all prepared for when the answer's 'no'.

JellySlice Tue 05-May-20 15:34:11

Draft Scottish Govt legislation uses that others refer to a person as she/her part of evidence that a person is both a woman & female.

So when a bully forces someone into giving the bully what the bully wants, that confirms the bully is the rightful owner?

JellySlice Tue 05-May-20 15:35:04

Or even calmly, quietly and gently tricks the other person...

TinaBarrow Fri 14-Aug-20 20:02:59

There is to be a presentation on this topic by Maureen O'Hara tomorrow on the weekly Women's Human Rights Campaign webinar:

Gender ideology and speech control in the UK

Women's Human Rights Campaign (WHRC) is hosting a LIVE Feminist Question Time on Sat 15th August from 3-4.30pm UK time.

This week’s speakers are:
Maureen O'Hara, UK, feminist activist and legal academic, and a co-author of the Declaration on Women’s Sex-Based Rights. The focus of her activism and research is men's violence against women and girls, particularly in the sex trade; and the harms caused to women and children by gender ideology.
Stefanie Bode, Germany, Country Contact WHRC Germany
Kathleen Lowrey, Canada, Associate Professor of Anthropology at the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada. She is a U.S. / Canadian dual citizen born in Mexico, and has conducted research in South America since the late 1990s
Register in advance for this webinar:
us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_Mq9EMIAbTkyNz5gAx4l2DQ

Dervel Fri 14-Aug-20 20:17:46

I’m actually very sad about the Lib Dem’s, I voted for them for most of my adult life, but given I was pro-brexit, and now this nightmare they wish to inflict on women made me with heavy heart switch to the Torys. I hope they get their act together soon.

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