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Zoe Williams opinion piece in The Guardian

(204 Posts)
Justhadathought Tue 10-Mar-20 19:05:04

Feminist solidarity empowers everyone. The movement must be trans-inclusive: www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/10/feminist-solidarity-empowers-everyone-the-movement-must-be-trans-inclusive

Needless to say, she misses every single point.......And no, feminism has always been about centring the needs of women and girls.......

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LynnSchmob Tue 10-Mar-20 19:07:17

It’s the guardian. It’s a lost cause.

Justhadathought Tue 10-Mar-20 19:08:08

It feels distinctly modern and unprecedented that we find ourselves in this obliterative debate, where one side can’t prevail until the other is destroyed, where all the values of the movement are parked so we can fight over issues that are so technical that there is no room for compromise, yet also so abstract that there is no space for human beings

Women don't want to destroy anyone, Zoe......Why don't you campaign for third spaces - so all can live in peace and feel comfort and dignity - instead of joining the movement which seeks to erase those possibilities for women and girls?

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Fanthorpe Tue 10-Mar-20 19:08:12

I used to think she was a good journo, but I interacted with her on Twitter once and she just missed the point spectacularly.

Noooblerooble Tue 10-Mar-20 19:08:34

This has got to me.

Idiot, short sighted, unkind people who can't understand how frightening it is for survivors of sa to think of losing women-only spaces. I am shaking.

Justhadathought Tue 10-Mar-20 19:12:02

We are witnessing an explosion of misogyny at the highest levels of public life. We have seen explicitly misogynistic terrorist acts – indeed, hatred of women is the through line that connects Isis to incels, that unites acts of violence globally – all while state-sponsored oppression of women has ascended to new levels of impunity. We have never needed unity more, yet, by wild coincidence, at exactly this moment, suddenly there is this obstacle that we can’t get past

This 'obstacle' you speak of Zoe is, itself, part of the problem of misogyny.

I'm not sure how you can, on one hand talk about 'women' as if everyone is in agreement with you about what women suffer - but then on the other hand dismiss the notion that a woman is a distinctive category of human being, with its own needs and requirements

Transwomen are another category. A different category.

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Floisme Tue 10-Mar-20 19:14:11

Even Gaby Hinsliff managed to grasp that transwomen in women's refuges could be problematic. But unfortunately a lot of people believe feminism is about putting everyone else's needs before their own.

Justhadathought Tue 10-Mar-20 19:15:18

In fact, there is precedent: we have weathered absolutes before

Zoe, woman is an absolute category. A woman is an adult human female. If that is absolute, blame nature; blame scientific fact.....but don't blame women - because that is what you are doing here.

You haven't spoken about this for seven years because you were scared. Of what, and of whom?

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AutumnCrow Tue 10-Mar-20 19:17:51

@Noooblerooble, I'm just about to read it. Back soon.

ScrimpshawTheSecond Tue 10-Mar-20 19:17:55

'Women-only space was a realm protected from our Harvey Weinsteins, where we could talk about our Harvey Weinsteins; it was not a hallowed place where we communicated through our ovaries. It was where we came together in unity against people who hated us. I can’t imagine the mindset that would exclude a trans sister from that.'

So, what about our 'Karen Whites', where do they fit in this very neat categorising of 'Weinstein' vs 'our trans sisters'?

Justhadathought Tue 10-Mar-20 19:18:31

Solidarity is not exclusive or pedantic; it is compassionate and fights oppression where it finds it

Only when it is women having to do the donkey work it would seem........
What is wrong with exclusivity anyway? Groupings, by their very definition, are exclusive.Groups with a certain commonality have every right to form and to speak up for their own interests.

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ScrimpshawTheSecond Tue 10-Mar-20 19:20:18

- and the last para is just a list of strawwomxn. A piss poor article trying limply to convince itself of its last oxymoronic fallacy.

allmywhat Tue 10-Mar-20 19:20:40

Wow, she's an idiot. I almost stopped reading at "wonderful talk by Helen Belcher" but morbid curiousity propelled me onward.

* Women-only space was a realm protected from our Harvey Weinsteins... I can’t imagine the mindset that would exclude a trans sister from that.*

Ah yes of course, because there are no trans-identified "Harvey Weinsteins," and no "Harvey Weinsteins" who would happily claim to be trans when it gets them into the same room as naked women. Where on Earth has she been?

* hatred of women is the through line that connects Isis to incels,*
Isis-----------incels--------???

Oh go on Zoe, extend the line a little further, see what else you hit.

Justhadathought Tue 10-Mar-20 19:21:18

It was where we came together in unity against people who hated us. I can’t imagine the mindset that would exclude a trans sister from that.

You mean like at the Labour women's meeting at which trans activists yelled vile things about 'disgusting genitals'; and set off smoke bombs?

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Winesalot Tue 10-Mar-20 19:26:02

It is astonishing that the idea of the “women-only space” is being touted as a fundamental pillar of the movement, yet is completely stripped of the historical context of that. Women-only space was a realm protected from our Harvey Weinsteins, where we could talk about our Harvey Weinsteins; it was not a hallowed place where we communicated through our ovaries.

Umm!! Well I guess she is correct in being so ageist in this article. I am about her age and I don’t understand the message conveyed in this sentence at all. Obviously I am too old to understand....

TinselAngel Tue 10-Mar-20 19:26:35

Sorry I can't get past

* I had seen this wonderful talk by Helen Belcher**

AutumnCrow Tue 10-Mar-20 19:26:56

Absolute twaddle from ZW there in para 1.

Justhadathought Tue 10-Mar-20 19:31:36

it was not a hallowed place where we communicated through our ovaries

Can't quite get my head around the dismissiveness of this. Women only spaces, services and sports are there for the dignity, comfort and privacy of one's sex, as well as to protect the certain vulnerabilities that women have as a consequence of their biology/body.

I don't go to changing rooms or toilets to discuss Harvey Weinstein....although I did, once, come across a note stuck to the mirror of a women's toilet in an Edinburgh pub......which suggested to women who might be feeling 'uncomfortable or unsafe with their date', that there was a named woman behind the bar who could offer them assistance.

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ScrimpshawTheSecond Tue 10-Mar-20 19:36:53

Women-only space was a realm protected from our Harvey Weinsteins, where we could talk about our Harvey Weinsteins; it was not a hallowed place where we communicated through our ovaries.

Yes, fundamentally, I just don't understand what on earth she's saying here. It's a protected realm, but not a hallowed place - well, okay? What is it she thinks we want to do in these places? Apart from be safe?

AutumnCrow Tue 10-Mar-20 19:38:09

I think she's confused feminists with some bewildering construction of surrendered comfort worker gynecological specimens.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman Tue 10-Mar-20 19:39:14

Feminism, in my life’s experience of it, takes the side of the oppressed.
Nope, sweetie, it's there firstly for the females. The tedious XX ones. That it can expand to find compassion for other oppressed groups is great, but that's a secondary function.

And then some way down I hit 'cis women'. I gave up at that point. I just can't be bothered with the bullshit any longer.

Mind you, I can't be bothered with the Grauniad either. I was a devoted reader once, but it slowly pissed me off with its resounding ignorance about life beyond major cities, and I don't touch it now.

BeetrootRocks Tue 10-Mar-20 19:40:30

Got as far as the first few lines

'I assumed that feminism would soon re-orient itself away from which body parts define a woman '

Erm the whole reason for our systematic oppression globally and for millennia is due to our body parts, our biology....

Will read rest.

But seriously, what the hell?

BeetrootRocks Tue 10-Mar-20 19:42:52

Love is what will cause the feminist movement to be victorious?

Hahaha I mean come on.

Are girls who are sexually exploited all over the world to be saved by love!? What does that even mean?

BeetrootRocks Tue 10-Mar-20 19:49:13

Christ what SC terrible article.

Feminism is for everyone. Anyone who feels hated. mgtow and other groups of white het men feel hated, they should totes be invited in to join the convo poor things. Because feminism is first and foremost for everyone!

And it's trans women in particular who seem to think there is some kind of magical girl bonding stuff going on in xyz situations that they need in on (some not so). Giggling over prosecco! All girls together in the bogs! Etc. All based on sexist stereotypes.

God this is shite do I need to read

HirooOnoda Tue 10-Mar-20 19:51:08

I think she makes several valid points. Our collective rush to dismiss everything that is said by an opposing voice too often undermines our cause. The discourse around this wider issue is nothing short of a disgrace, perpetuated by those on all sides of this deteriorating debate. We can’t progress without at least attempting to understand the rationale of those who oppose us

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