R4 Today (28 Feb): Tom Holland interview equating trans debate to the Reformation

[boatyardblues]

Tom Holland précis: only a small number of people so not sure why its so heated (“roiling”), society is a bit behind in its thinking, we just need to be nice to the oppressed. I think Justin was interviewing but he made the point some people feel like the trans stuff was agreed at a meeting by a group of youngsters and the rest of us didn’t get the email. (Nice one!)

Anyway, what a load of shite. If you try to unilaterally change the meaning of words and upend scientifically observable reality and then try and force it on everyone, it affects every man, woman and child in society - not just the “tiny number” of people pushing it. As for the ‘be nice’ argument - well, we should consider the needs of everyone in society to have their rights, bodily autonomy, dignity and safety respected.

[boatyardblues]

It was at around 8.20 this morning just after the coronavirus discussion with Jeremy Hunt (as the current Cabinet have refused to appear on Today, FFS!).

[TorkTorkBam]

I shouted at the radio when he said it only affects a tiny minority.

No, changing the legal definition of man and woman to be based on feelings not biology affects everyone who ever uses single sex services, i.e. EVERYBODY.

[TorkTorkBam]

Obviously he had to compare it to the Reformation not the Enlightenment. I seem to recall the burning of books and people in one but not so much in the other.

Here we have people promoting going back to magical beliefs built on sexist roles. Running backwards into the dark ages.

At least now these odd beliefs are getting sunlight. I doubt most people want to go back to theocracy, even under a new magical belief system.

[SoldiersinPetticoats]

Heard it and it gave me the rage this morning. It effects EVERYONE! Grrr.

[Mockersisrightasusual]

We are well into the witch-hunt phase, with anyone who canot say the incantation TWAW found guilty. Most women accused of witchcraft in the 17th century were 'scolds,' who spoke out in ways not approved.

[RoyalCorgi]

Why on earth are they interviewing Tom Holland about this stuff? What does he know about it?

Used to think he was quite good.

[catsnoozing]

He was trying to draw parallels with the Reformation in Europe and how that developed.

People suddenly found that their church walls were being whitewashed, society was being reformed, in the universities etc. I think I can see the point he was making, in terms of how cultural changes happen. Personally I don't think it was a particularly good comparison.

He's got a new book out. Nuff said.

[Al1Langdownthecleghole]

It was ridiculous frankly. He said something along the lines of the idea that men and women are created separately is fundamental to Christianity. Er no. It's fundamental biology that men and women are different.

Then he talked about caring for people who are persecuted. Dear Tom, Disagreeing with people on t'internet isn't persecution and middle class white males are not the most persecuted group on the planet.

[WhatKatyDidNot]

I am sick of hearing people describe this as a "niche issue".

This is how sexist society is. This is how invisible women are. This is how invisible child protection is. It doesn't occur to anyone to count anyone other than the XY persons in the equation. Women are half the population. Children a quarter. But it doesn't affect many XY persons, so it's a niche issue. No, it bloody well isn't.

[Needmoresleep]

I think any parallel to the Reformation is broader than that.

It is argued that the invention of the printing press enable the rapid spread of ideas, and thus social upheaval (both reform and counter-reform) as the existing establishment: the Church and the King, were challenged. Eventually it settled down and "protestants" as we know them are largely represented by the good old CofE.

Now we have the Internet, which gives scope for ideas, whether good, false or straight batty, to circulate instantly. We as a society will eventually learn how to cope and filter but it is too new and still developing. I think the batty includes flat earthers, creationists, and much of gender ideology. (I do accept/am sympathetic to gender dysphoria and accept that there are issues that need to be better understood.)

[Lordfrontpaw]

I thought he was being an idiot.

[Al1Langdownthecleghole]

I think you are right needmoresleep but the message I heard was still a variation of "be nice".

It felt more like a religious slant on the wrong side of history slogan. The times they are a-changing. Get over it.

[boatyardblues]

The times they are a-changing. Get over it.

Yup, there was a strong whiff of this.

[ZuttZeVootEeeVro]

only a small number of people so not sure why its so heated

When he said people, he meant men.

[PaleBlueMoonlight]

I caught the end of it and also couldn't believe the minimisation (well, actually I could, but you know). Also, seemed to be suggesting that the new ideology is the progressive position and that we just need to give the oldies time to catch up and get used to the idea. Is that right? Who is Tom Holland?

[TwoHeadedYellowBelliedHoleDig]

This is not the Spiderman Tom Holland then?

[NameChangedBeta]

I don't want to be nice anymore if that means biological males who have been convicted of sex offences will be housed in the female prison estate and enabled to commit further sexual offences against vulnerable women.

I don't want to be kind anymore if this leads to young children being given off label drugs without their parents' consent.

I don't want to be caring if it means girls will be denied sporting opportunities and mediocre boys will start winning female sporting events.

[NameChangedBeta]

By 'mediocre' I mean male-bodied athletes who have been unable to win competitions against other male bodied-athletes but are now placing in competitions against female-bodied athletes...

[BINtersectionalFeminism]

So essentially another man deciding what’s important to women. Thanks Tom! So glad you’re around to tell us these things.

Some people are taking him to task on Twitter.

[boatyardblues]

Do you have a Twitter link for that BINt?

[Tombakersscarf]

I had to google him. So he's a writer, not a superhero actor.
Wikipedia says his wife is a midwife. I suspect she knows a woman when she sees one.

[Sheshehe]

I thought you meant the Spiderman actor too! Off to Google...

[Langbannedforsafeguardingkids]

Funny how no-one ever asks anyone to 'be nice' to actual women and girls.

In fact, quite the opposite.

[WhenYouveAFirstInEnglish]

I really felt it was much more an academic point about social change rather than pro trans? I didn’t feel he came down one side or the other. The are struggling to fill the Today programme at the moment and it showed this morning.

[BINtersectionalFeminism]

mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1233303129459953666

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