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Transitioning children

(25 Posts)
Coyoacan Wed 12-Feb-20 21:00:44

I am trying to write a summary about this issue for my daughter who has a feminist friend here in Mexico who supports the transitioning of children.

Could you please check what I have written and tell me if I haven't left anything out or if I should change anything?

1)Gender stereotypes

Every parent ever who has talked about their transgender child says that they recognised they were transgender by the fact that they liked to dress as and played with the toys of the opposite sex. www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZiVPh12RQY See Minute 1:50

2)Toxic, experimental drugs

If they get the child before puberty, they give them puberty blockers and say that it is just a safe reversible pause button to give them time to decide if they want to change sex. The most famous of these puberty blockers is Lupron, which was originally designed for the treatment of prostate cancer in men, then later prescribed for some women’s gynaecological conditions and for children, like Lindsay, who were at risk of going into premature puberty. Lupron causes osteoporosis and a number of other very nasty side effects.

100% of children who are given puberty blockers go on to change sex, whereas children with this same problem who are not given them, mostly end up accepting the bodies they were born in.

After puberty blockers, come opposite sex hormones, so these children never go through their own natural puberty. Therefore they are sterile and have no libido. Also studies have shown that puberty is essential for maturing and children who don't go through puberty, lose something like 10% of their IQ.
Cross sex hormones are also problematic. There is an increase in heart attacks, for example.

Testosterone is given to females and overtime they get vagina atrophy and acute pain in their uterus that is only solved by a hysterectomy.

3)Surgery

Most adult transgender people don't get much in the way of surgery, but nearly all transgender children are sent down this route. Girls are getting double mastectomies and pseudo penises while boys are being castrated and a pseudo vagina created.

There is a very low success rate in some of these operations which means that a lot of people are left in permanent pain. There is a reality show called I am Jazz, where the young Jazz is now going for their fourth corrective surgery.*

4)Untreated mental health problems

One of the signs the parents of these children refer to is boys wanting to cut off their penises. In fact, this is usually a sign that they have been sexually abused.
A high number of children going to Gender Clinics have Autism
Many parents refer to doctors and therapists brushing aside other mental problems their children may have as being irrelevant.
In the UK and the USA, there has been a 4000% increase in the number of teenage girls identifying as the opposite sex over the last five years. Very little research has been done on into the reasons why.
Some clinicians have noticed homophobic parents bringing their children in.

5)Boundaries

Teenage girls are being told to ignore their discomfort with boys in their changing rooms and toilets. In fact, they are being told that they are bigots and transphobes for feeling such discomfort.

* [Please note: Minor post edit by MNHQ to bring it in line with our Talk Guidelines ]

OP’s posts: |
rogdmum Wed 12-Feb-20 21:12:21

Re your first point, quite a lot of adolescents who are now identifying as the opposite sex did not show gender non conforming behaviour as children. We know that approx 80% of children who identify as the opposite sex will desist by puberty, but we don’t know what the % might be for this new cohort of adolescents who appear to have suddenly started to identify as the opposite sex post puberty.

Lupron is used in the US- here it is triptorelina which is like a “cousin” of Lupron. We don’t know what the long term effects are although some initial studies show lower bone density and there is speculation on the effect of brain development. If you are being picky, it’s nearly 100% who then go onto cross sex hormones.

rogdmum Wed 12-Feb-20 21:16:43

I would add something another detransitioners. There is anecdotal evidence that growing numbers of adolescents who identified as the opposite sex are now detransitioning as they gain maturity. Charlie Evans recently set up the Detransitioners Advocacy Network in the UK to provide support for the growing number.

Coyoacan Wed 12-Feb-20 21:43:25

@rogdmum

Thanks. As I am in Mexico, it is probably Lupron that they are using.

They snuck all the legal stuff in by the back door here when no-one was looking and the country was immersed in the "war against drugs". But fortunately so far it doesn't seem to have taken off as a fashion.

OP’s posts: |
rogdmum Wed 12-Feb-20 21:47:50

Sorry, I misread that as having a friend visiting from Mexico which, of course, is not what you wrote at all! grin

@FtMdetrans on Twitter is a good account to have a look at re detransitioners.

rogdmum Wed 12-Feb-20 21:48:40

Argh- should be @FtMdetransed above

OneEpisode Wed 12-Feb-20 23:21:42

In 3 you refer to Jazz. Edit this to young person to avoid offence that will stop people reading on.
In 4, you might want to think about avoiding having a list of non standard people, like people with autism, under the heading “untreated mental health problems”.. you could think about having this as “other problems”. Some of the problems are with society.

Cascade220 Wed 12-Feb-20 23:58:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PerfectParrot Thu 13-Feb-20 00:03:12

I think that sterility needs to be highlighted. Those who undergo puberty blockers and cross sex hormones are deciding, as children, that they never want to have their own biological children. They are too young to consent to sex so they are most definitely too young to decide if they want offspring.

OneEpisode Thu 13-Feb-20 00:19:01

Spartacus I’m quite proud of being a non-standard person.

Coyoacan Thu 13-Feb-20 02:59:34

Thanks very much everyone. It is just to give my daughter some pointers for talking to her well-intentioned friend.

I'm sorry if I caused any offense to people with autism. You are right it doesn't come under mental health issues, though it does need to be taken into account when treating these girls.

I don't quite understand why you think that mentioning Jazz is a turn-off, even it were for public use. Jazz's life is totally public itself and I am truly sorry it is turning out so badly for Jazz. The fact that one would expect that someone like Jazz would have the top doctors that money can buy makes it even more of an object lesson, in my opinion.

OP’s posts: |
resisterpersister Thu 13-Feb-20 03:28:28

Also studies have shown that puberty is essential for maturing and children who don't go through puberty, lose something like 10% of their IQ

This is easily challenged as there is no data and that's the point. There has been one study on sheep IIRC which suggested that there MIGHT be a drop of intelligence that you could be something like 10% in humans. But we can't say that, for sure, this happens as we just don't know.

The point is, that puberty blockers have never been tested on children for stopping puberty at the correct time. Transactivists will tell you that puberty blockers have been used extensively on children so their risks are known, but this also isn't true as it's a different use and also because they're also being used off label for precocious puberty (CPP).

Children who take blockers for precocious puberty do so, so that they can have puberty at the correct time. This is the opposite use from a child taking them to stop puberty at the correct time.

It's worth reminding people that puberty is a time of huge development of many body systems, not only genitals and secondary sex characteristics eg breasts or facial hair. Puberty is a time of massive brain development, for example. It it the time in which we develop from child to adult. How does it affect the brain to have this processed stopped by drugs.

No one knows and this is the whole point. The current group of kids taking blockers are basically part of a massive experiment on kids.

The sheep study on brains is a small study and we can't draw concrete conclusions from it. But it's shocking that there is no research into long term outcomes yet we are giving these hugely powerful drugs to kids anyway.

resisterpersister Thu 13-Feb-20 03:48:04

I do think mentioning Jazz is fair enough tbh, for this reason:

An issue that's going through the UK courts right now, and one that people really need to understand is what children as young as 11 are being expected to be able to consent to.

When we talk about the effects of these drugs it's disingenuous to talk about blockers on their own, separate from the other parts of transition. Given that pretty much 100% of kids on blockers go on to hormones and many will have surgery, any discussion of blockers needs to see them as the first step in a treatment pathway and look at the effects of the whole regime.

Children who go on blockers young, and then onto hormones and possibly surgery will likely be sterile. But not only that, they risk losing sexual function completely. (I think it doesn't hammer the point home to just call it libido because people know libido comes and goes. This is actual removal of sexual function.)

Trans activists will then tell you about their mate or themselves who can have sex just fine, but they're almost always talking about adult transitioners. (Or they'll tell you your creepy for wanting to know about what goes on in a child's pants. hmm To which I reply, I'm a mother, it's my job to understand what's being offered to my kids).

I think people really don't understand that we're creating kids who will grow up into adults who are unable to have a functional sex life At all. Unless you count letting someone fuck their neovagina which they have no hope of feeling sexual pleasure with, as sex. (Who would want to have sex with someone incapable of feeling pleasure from it. you have to wonder?)

To be clear, not all children will mess up their sexual function completely. But some will, it's a serious risk. Fro example - Jazz Jennings. Jazz has done videos openly talking about having never had an orgasm. And the trailers for the upcoming series include Jazz wondering if experiencing orgasm is every going to be a possibility.

If a child takes blockers from say 10 or 11, you're basically asking a child who has NO CONCEPT what it means to have an adult sexual relationship, to consent to risking never being able to have on when they grow up.

How can a child possibly understand that?

There is a court case happening right now, backed by Susan Evans, a psychologist who was previously a nurse at GIDS. The case is being brought by the mother of a 15 year old autistic girl and a woman in her 20s who's detranisioned and is scathing about her treatment as a teen at GIDS.

And this is other main point we need to shout about, I think. There are several expert whistleblowers who worked at GIDS who are putting their careers on the line to speak out about this. This is unprecedented. They include Marcus Evans, previously a Governor at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust that oversees GIDS, who ended a 35 year association with the trust when he resigned and whisleblew his concerns. Also Kirsty Entwhistle, a clinician who also resigned and wrote a scathing open letter to the director of GIDS, Polly Carmichael which includes her concerns about undue influence from Mermaids. Let's not forget Mermaids have no professional expertise - not in medicine or psychology or child development. They have no business pressuring clinicians trying to do their job.

There are a further 5 anonymous whistleblowers and look up David Bell's leaked report also.

Newsnight reported on how the Tavistock suppressed evidence that suicidal ideation went UP among their young patients on blockers.

The important thing to get across is that medical professionals are risking their careers to speak out. They don't gain anything from it. We must listen to them, especially if we care about trans and gender non conforming youth.

Mermaids and Stonewall etc on the other hand are PAID, loads of money, to lobby. They're not risking anything and they do this based on ideology, not evidence or relevant expertise.

resisterpersister Thu 13-Feb-20 03:56:01

OP, I suggest you play her some videos of testimony from detransitioners. People telling their own stories are often more powerful that a load of arguments, however sound.

Coyoacan Thu 13-Feb-20 13:14:41

Thanks again. I've made a couple of changes and given it to my daughter. Now she's asked for a similar synopsis on how this issue affects women and girls.

OP’s posts: |
Thelnebriati Thu 13-Feb-20 13:53:43

Someone has made a list of affected rights, I'll see if I can find it.

Lordfrontpaw Thu 13-Feb-20 14:00:17

Children live in an amazing world of fantasy and short-termism.

They daydream and don't realise that forever is forever.

They believe adults they trust and arent critical thinkers.

They believe that they will love playing with Barbie Doll's forever and look forward to being a grown-up so that they won't have to eat broccoli or tidy their room.

They are desperate for a toy one day, only for it to be the Worst Toy Ever the next.

Thelnebriati Thu 13-Feb-20 14:08:07

I can't find it, maybe someone else has a link. We are the only group who's rights are affected who have no recourse. Hatred of women is not a hate crime.
Off the top of my head we lose;

1) - Article 10 of the Human Rights Act: the right to freedom of expression
2) - Article 11 of the Human Rights Act: the right to freedom of assembly and association
3) the right to single sex changing rooms, toilets, showers dormitories, domestic violence shelters, hospital wards, psychiatric wards and prisons.
4) the right to ask for the same sex of doctor for a smear test, chaperone, and other medical staff, or counsellor, or rape crisis counsellor.
5) the right to participate safely and fairly in sex affected sports.
6) the right to a heterosexual marriage.
7) the right to accurate information collected by the govt, for crime, for the census, for equal pay and equal rights.
8) the right to be called or accurately described as women, to talk about our sex or biology.
9) the ability to exist truthfully in the historical record, in the record of achievements, as public figures, as scientists who make a discovery.

Thelnebriati Thu 13-Feb-20 14:11:40

10) the right to speak the truth, to speak factually and accurately, not just about others but about ourselves and our own experiences.

This situation was not anticipated when the original GRA was discussed.

When the Gender Recognition Bill went through the House of Lords the Minister in charge (Lord Filkin) said:
"The noble Baroness also asked whether people who refuse to call a gender-changed man by the changed gender would be open to action. No, they would not, unless they had information about the person's gender history in an official capacity and they disclosed it otherwise than is allowed for by Clause 21". [Hansard, Lords, 29/01/04 col 411]"
publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200304/ldhansrd/vo040129/text/40129-24.htm

DuLANGMondeFOREVER Thu 13-Feb-20 17:20:53

Send her a link to the detrans reddit.

The posts there make my heart hurt.

scotsheather Thu 13-Feb-20 17:27:34

Personally I'm fine with it UNTIL it gets to puberty blocking, or giving access to opposite sex spaces which exist for a reason. Gender bending, breaking 'norms' of gender, absolutely. Carry on, boys and girls. The complacency over 'fully reversible' blockers is quite alarming however and needs nipped in the bud.

Coyoacan Thu 13-Feb-20 20:30:33

Yeah! I love that list.

This issue has ramifications almost everywhere you turn

OP’s posts: |
missproportionate Fri 14-Feb-20 08:45:53

Great list @inebriati

Thelnebriati Fri 14-Feb-20 10:01:51

What Are Human Rights?
Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, regardless of race, sex, nationality, ethnicity, language, religion, or any other status. Human rights include the right to life and liberty, freedom from slavery and torture, freedom of opinion and expression, the right to work and education, and many more. Everyone is entitled to these rights, without discrimination.

International Human Rights Law
International human rights law lays down the obligations of Governments to act in certain ways or to refrain from certain acts, in order to promote and protect human rights and fundamental freedoms of individuals or groups.

www.un.org/en/sections/issues-depth/human-rights/

Thelnebriati Fri 14-Feb-20 10:11:50

Human rights exist in law because they are the foundation of a reasonable and just society in which people can live free from fear and coercion.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/index.html

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

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