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Can anyone explain to me (related to TRA)...

(64 Posts)
ThePeckOfPickledPeppersPeterPi Mon 13-Jan-20 17:29:36

... how the TRA movement can sometimes risk being homophobic?

I'm beginning to see clearly some issues with erosion of women's rights. I also saw a suggestion somewhere that some aspects of the movement could potentially negatively impact gay men or women, but not a full argument. Can anyone explain this further? Thank you!

(PS I blame Glinner. I was blissfully unaware of most of these issues till recently).

NotTerfNorCis Mon 13-Jan-20 17:32:35

They don't accept that people are sexually attracted to one another based on sex, not gender. So for instance lesbians are bigots if they wouldn't consider transwomen as sexual partners. Google the 'cotton ceiling' for more info.

smemorata Mon 13-Jan-20 17:34:32

As far as I understand it it's because it doesn't accept the idea of same sex attraction just gender identity so lesbians are expected to date trans women who identify as female rather than just women.

SpartacusAutisticus Mon 13-Jan-20 17:35:54

If sex doesn't exist neither can sexual orientation.

SpartacusAutisticus Mon 13-Jan-20 17:36:52

I would suggest downloading and reading this:
www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research/lesbians-at-ground-zero.html

ThePeckOfPickledPeppersPeterPi Mon 13-Jan-20 17:37:17

Thanks @NotTerfNorCis

lesbians are bigots if they wouldn't consider transwomen as sexual partners
^ Blimey - really? So to say, as a woman, that you only fancy biological females is bigoted?

I'll Google the cotton ceiling - many thanks

ThePeckOfPickledPeppersPeterPi Mon 13-Jan-20 17:39:35

Wow, OK. Thank you @smemorata and @SpartacusAutisticus. I was going to ask whether this was just a theoretical risk or whether anyone had experience of it happening. Looks like that book might give an answer? Is this something people are aware of happening in "real life" then? Sorry if these questions are naive/offensive to anyone.

Feminazgul Mon 13-Jan-20 17:42:32

Theres also the implication that homosexuals are just trans people who havent realised it yet, which is erasing homosexuality and homophobic in itself.

OldCrone Mon 13-Jan-20 17:43:35

Many children who are gender non-conforming grow up to be gay. These children are now being taught that their gender non-conformity means that they are 'trans'. So transing children can be seen as a way of making sure there are fewer gay adults in the future.

FleetsumNJetsum Mon 13-Jan-20 17:43:42

I have heard the idea, too, that some TRAs believe that if you are a gay male you are just a transwoman without the courage to transition.

Actual gender dysphoria, and the existence of homosexuals is a distant memory for some.

MrsWooster Mon 13-Jan-20 17:47:21

And the approach to young people and gender non-conformity. TRAs look at gender non conforming young people as trans, rather than viewing (most of) them as people (sensibly) rejecting sexist stereotypes. Erasing many of the gay men and lesbians of the future.

MrsWooster Mon 13-Jan-20 17:47:59

Beat me to it, crone!

Melroses Mon 13-Jan-20 17:48:25

There is a clash between the idea of seeing the people in the world by gender identities, and same sex attraction.

Sometimes people of the same 'gender' are not of the same sex.

Encouraging/coercing homosexual people into relationships of the same gender but not the same sex is not too dissimilar to encouraging homosexual people into relationships with the opposite sex as used to happen in days gone by (in fact it is just the same).

There is also the problem of affirming young people as the opposite sex/gender on onto medical pathways to transitioning when they have not fully developed physically, emotionally and socially and may turn out to be same sex attracted.

ThePeckOfPickledPeppersPeterPi Mon 13-Jan-20 17:49:51

OK, this makes a lot of sense - thanks, @Feminazgul, @OldCrone and @FleetsumNJetsum.
This is very complicated.
So the idea is that people are transitioning, or being encouraged to transition, in the absence of true gender dysphoria (e.g., directly or indirectly to "avoid" being gay). I can see how that might be a risk - and is there also some evidence you could point me to which shows how often this happens? An occasional thing, or frequent?
Thanks again all

ThePeckOfPickledPeppersPeterPi Mon 13-Jan-20 17:51:36

Thanks @MrsWooster and @Melroses

Again, this makes a lot of sense

StillWeRise Mon 13-Jan-20 17:55:36

yes I think a prominent TRA actually said that gay men just didn't have the courage to accept they were 'really transwomen'
shock
somebody can probably provide a citation

SarahTancredi Mon 13-Jan-20 17:56:08

In Pakistan homosexuality is a sin and you can be imprisoned or stoned to death.

Trans however is fine.

Bit of an own goal when penis news celebrated their trans inclusivity with that one. Forgot why nen were transing in the first place hmm

nauticant Mon 13-Jan-20 18:00:44

They don't accept that people are sexually attracted to one another based on sex, not gender.

You've got to actually realise what this means. That homosexual people, rather than being attracted to same sex partners, are attracted to gender so being a gay men is attraction to masculine presenting people (even if they're women) and being a gay woman is attraction to feminine presenting people (even if they're men).

This has a number of consequences. It sets rules about how people should present. It is an attempt to eliminate same sex attraction. It provide a means by lesbians can be denounced as transphobes if they flatly refuse to accept men, however they identify, as potential partners.

SarahTancredi Mon 13-Jan-20 18:04:12

It provide a means by lesbians can be denounced as transphobes if they flatly refuse to accept men, however they identify, as potential partnera

Some have even taken to twitter to announce that the only acceptable sexuality is pansexuality.

So men must be e included at all times

WhereYouLeftIt Mon 13-Jan-20 18:04:37

"I have heard the idea, too, that some TRAs believe that if you are a gay male you are just a transwoman without the courage to transition."
Ah yes, the interview given by author Juno Dawson to Attitude magazine! For some reason Attitude have removed it from their website, but Gay Star News still have it.

www.gaystarnews.com/article/juno-dawson-gay-men-consolation-prize/

ThePeckOfPickledPeppersPeterPi Mon 13-Jan-20 18:09:34

So are there also groups of gay men speaking out about this? As well as the "TERFs" (hmm...)?

ACatWhoBinds Mon 13-Jan-20 18:11:02

I don’t find this with most people I know who are trans/enby. I think you like who you like and that’s it - whether they’re a man, woman, whatever - and no one can change that or force people to be with someone they’re not attracted to. You never know, 5 years time you might fall madly in love with a trans person! Not liking someone isn’t a crime though. I’ve always liked the Kinsey scale - my philosophy is that most probably no one is 100% gay or straight, the likelihood is there’s at least 1 person out there who would be attractive to you. Not going to diminish other people’s sexualities though!! People should be able to identify as what best fits them (which also means stop saying lesbians dating trans women are bi, seriously, it’s SO shitty)

CallofDoodee Mon 13-Jan-20 18:11:37

Theres also the implication that homosexuals are just trans people who havent realised it yet, which is erasing homosexuality and homophobic in itself.

It's not just an implication. The oh so fragrant Juno Dawson is on record saying it.

www.gaystarnews.com/article/juno-dawson-gay-men-consolation-prize/

She said: ‘A lot of gay men are gay men as a consolation prize because they couldn’t be women’

Funnily enough the original 2017 Attitude magazine article this was in has been taken down, and I only read it not that long ago.

Oh Juno....homophobia ain't a good look is it?

ACatWhoBinds Mon 13-Jan-20 18:13:14

Also just so you know I don’t agree with people who say gay people are just straight trans people - you can be trans and gay! My best friend is a gay trans man!

FleetsumNJetsum Mon 13-Jan-20 18:24:41

www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5GYlZKfBmI

Riley Dennis

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