Looking for links to trans debate synopses(17 Posts)
I "took the red pill" some years ago and see the situation from the other side very clearly now. I can't recall precisely why it was so hard to grasp, but I remember the mind-twist... I think the problem was my strong adherence to acceptance/understanding... liberalism? I'm now someone routinely blocked on Twitter for my "TERF" comments. Rambling, sorry.
Anyway, from time to time I encounter someone entirely new to the debate. Most recent one is "surprised at me"... and sounds a bit disappointed.
Ideally I'd sit them down and chat to them for a few hours and assist them in understanding 'the other side'... but mostly I don't have the time.
And if I link them to a website or an essay or a series of YouTube lectures - they're just not going to watch/read.
Is there a short, to the point, mind altering YouTube vid or online article I can link them to and say... "read this, then we can talk"?
Theres a thread called 'break it down for me' that might help.
Be warned though, we've had quite the influx of new posters who have asked a similar question over the past few days, so your best bet is to do some reading of threads.
Google Cotton Ceiling and watch some Posie Parker and Magdalen Berns. I'd also recommend Benjamin Boyce as he has interviewed a range of people inc Posie.
New posters have been asking similar questions OP and it turns out they are not so new to these issues after all so I'd check out the Break it down for me thread as noted and the This never happens thread and go from there. If you are genuine then many of you're questions will be answered from there. If not, well then, yes we know, we know, Long Live the Penis... yawn.
Hmmm .. unfortunately, changing someone's mind is rarely a singular event. Usually it's a gradual accumulation of questions and doubts that culminate in a moment or a series of moments where the person realises they no longer can justify their support for a particular stance.
The issues around trans ideology are very wide on scope and different aspects will touch different people.
Does infringments on free speech concern them? Do they have children and could they be concerned by the lack of rigour around medical treatments for children? Are they into sports and big on fairness in competition? Safety for women and children? Etc etc. There are so many angles that it could be approached from but it depends on the person.
If they are open to discussion, maybe you could ask them what they find surprising or disappointing and whether they are willing to listen to you summarise why you reached the conclusion that you have?
I generally go with victims of sexual assault needing to see an actual female counsellor rather than a self-identified one. You can see the empathy switching from the trans woman to the woman.
Examples people can relate to rather than threads are best imo.
This is not a quick synopsis but this is an excellent explanation of queer theory which is the bedrock of, well I'll let you read it for yourself.
I'm going to have to do a synopsis myself then. I'm not the best at writing. I hope someone at WPUK or FP4W will do one at some point so I can just link it.
I'd be embarrassed to post it in here but perhaps I should write some bullet points and post it here and you can guide me in tweaking it to something useful?
This is an article by a psychologist describing how she was a believer in trans ideology until she "couldn’t ignore the facts any longer."
Oooh that last one is good. TY. The documenting of their own transition to realisation. Nice. But it doesn't address some of the points I want to make. And I want something very very short and to the point initially so they don't need to invest much time or brain. They're 'woke' to the max so it needs to grab their attention.
Current situation is a friend who am close to and I want to initially blat out the main points.
Please tell me what I've missed - what I've said that's wrong - etc etc...
<takes a deep breath>
* In most situations I don't mind if people want to outwardly appear as the 'gender' they are not. If a girl wants to wear trousers, I am fine with that. If a man wants to wear a dress, make-up or a tiara - I'm fine with that too!
* Where I have a problem is when someone claims they are not the 'sex' they biologically are. There are a number of negative implications of this.
* Children are not born in the wrong body. It's impossible to be born in the wrong body. Any conclusion that the body is 'wrong' is based on some societal expectation of behaviour and desire and leads to a number of negative implications.
* Humans are a species which are sexually dimorphic. There are males and females and a minuscule number of genetic oddities resulting in people with both sets of sexual organs. This latter group are NOT 'trans' people. No 'trans' person is. All 'trans' people are biologically male or female but claiming to 'be' the other.
* If a girl doesn't find herself wanting to play with dolls and wear dresses but instead is drawn towards playing with stereotypically 'male toys' - this is not a boy in the wrong body - it's a girl. Girls are allowed to be interested in whatever they like. It is society that says otherwise... and this is sexism. The trans advocacy movement in society is very much actively promoting sexism.
* This girl that is told their behaviour is abnormal - if they go to the NHS and explain their feelings - more and more are told that perhaps they are trans. Some are then referred to Mermaids or The Tavistock Clinic which will give them some psychological support but which will on the whole affirm their belief that they are in fact someone born in the wrong body.
* A child 'diagnosed' as 'transgender' is then subject to puberty blocking drugs. These drugs are not clinically tested for this purpose and may produce irreversible change and damaging side-effects. Some takers are unable, ever, for the rest of their lives to enjoy a sexual climax. Later they may, if they go on, be castrated or have a hysterectomy, a breast removal. These surgeries are irreversible. A lot of 'transgender' people decide later in life that they have made a mistake. But it can be very much too late not just physically, but mentally too.
* Many 'trans' people in the world are told, or decide they are 'trans' because of their sexual attraction to same sex partners - aka homosexuality. Denial of the existence of same sex attraction is driven by homophobia in many countries including the UK.
* The 'trans' community (the male to female community) want to change the law so that their legal sex is female based only on their own say-so. They want literally to be able to wake up and say "I feel like a woman" and then legally they are a woman. This surprisingly is the law in some countries already. It may be in the UK soon also. This would have (and already is having) huge negative implications for women only spaces, women's sports, women's prisons and crime reporting.
* 98% of violent crime is committed by males. If males can legally change their lawful sex to female, these statistics will become utterly useless. And worse, biological males will have free access to spaces where until recently, women felt relatively safe. Girl guide leaders. School teachers in the changing rooms. Prison guards. I could go on.
* Children all over the world (massive spike in the UK at the moment) are being told, on seeking professional help for, among other things, their depression, self-harm and anxiety, that they are perhaps 'transgender' and are being steamrollered into transition. Note that there is a massive correlation between those concluding they are 'trans' and those who have suffered some form of trauma or abuse beforehand.
* Lesbians are being accused of being transphobic for not wanting to have sexual liaisons with male to female 'trans women' - despite the fact that often, these 'trans women' still have fully functional genitalia.
* There is zero evidence that 'trans' people have anything other than a mental health disorder. They're not happy in themselves and the 'trans' conclusion gives them community and purpose. If someone seeks help because they think they're something they're not in any other form, they are treated for mental health problems - which is what they need. If the conclusion is that the problem is that they're 'trans' then they will be dissociated/distracted for some time which may alleviate the symptoms - but it will not in any way address the root cause.
* Women's sport. I don't need to explain the problem here.
* Woman of the year - and other formerly woman only positions. Again I don't think this needs explanation. The problem is obvious. Eg Woman of the Year 2015 was Caitlyn Jenner. A man. Bananas.
* 'Trans women' (men) are increasingly becoming violent (recall the 98% of violent crime stat) and threatening to women (real ones) who say they don't want to accommodate them in some scenarios. Women (real ones) are being forced - verbally, physically, and sometimes by the law - to let men into women only spaces, to say that men are women. A famous lawyer was sacked (case ongoing) recently for saying that she did not think 'trans women' are biological women. Saying this is an arrestable offence now. A statement of scientific fact is an arrestable offence. Read that last sentence again.
In summary... people should be able to dress how they like, appear how they like, change their name as they like... that's fine. And if they are still 'a man who chooses to appear like this' then there's no issue for social stereotypes - in fact it potentially works to break them down... but as soon as you say they are a woman - especially when this is stated as a legal fact - then there become massive problems.
This Times article gives a very good overview. I'm afraid I don't have a share token but it is worth trying to read the full article if you can get one.
No one has two sets of sex organs (caveat very very tiny possibility of mosaicism where two fertilized eggs one of each sex merge to form one person)...intersex conditions are where the external sex organs don’t visually match the internal/chromosomes...
A picture paints a thousand words...
No human can have two fully functional sets of sexual organs. We are not hermaphrodites.
There might be a case where the tissue that ultimately forms into either ovaries or testicles is severely underdeveloped so it is difficult to tell which reproductive organ it would have eventually developed into, but then there are other ways to double-check a person's sex.
Keep it simple - an extremely small number of women and men have genetic or developmental conditions which means their reproductive and / or sexual organs might not develop or function properly. This is not 'proof' that sex isn't binary any more than people born with eye defects or missing limbs can be taken as evidence that humans as a species do not have two eyes, two arms and two legs.
And as you mention, trans people do not have DSDs so have fully functional reproductive and sexual organs that are either male or female.
This is the most succinct I have found:
Helen Saxby has written some great articles:
‘6 years in the Gender Wars’ by Sarah Ditum is good:
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