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Dr Stuart Lorimer Gendercare

(71 Posts)
vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 18:51:39

t's fair to say the decision to set up GenderCare, around seven years ago, wasn't an altruistic one. Doctors have mortgages too, and my partner was on the verge of retirement. In the UK, the coalition government showed every sign of squeezing the NHS in what has turned out to be the longest public sector pay freeze for many decades. I was looking for ways to generate more income.

Apparently Dr Stuart Lorimer was at the Detransitioners event in Manchester. There are loads of youtube videos of young women excitedly describing their first appointment in his clinic. This is his explanation of the thinking behind Gendercare.

vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 18:52:32

I just find it so shocking. That's actually on the Clinic's own website.

StillWeRise Mon 02-Dec-19 19:09:32

well, quelle surprise

vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 19:12:40

It's amazing that he felt so confident to just put it out there?

NeurotrashWarrior Mon 02-Dec-19 19:17:18

shock

vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 19:25:37

'Looking for ways to generate more income' is surely not a satisfactory motivation to putting young women on a path of life long medicalisation, sterility, removal of healthy body parts etc.

A lot of the testimonies on YouTube mention how 'validating' he was, saying that a woman's voice doesn't sound particularly feminine etc.

I bet.

vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 19:26:22

I'm just raging about the whole thing. Why haven't these people been stopped?

vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 19:27:51

Moaning about his mortgage and pay freezes.

Michelleoftheresistance Mon 02-Dec-19 19:29:59

shock

vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 19:33:07

He used to be on twitter talking about the '4 H's of the 'testocalypse'- Horny, Hairy, Hungry and Hot.

arethereanyusernamesleftatall Mon 02-Dec-19 20:18:53

I found this account from a young detransitioner very powerful. She goes back to the doctor responsible for her transition to let her know it didn't work out and ask her questions.

Not about Dr Lorimer, but a doctor providing very similar services.

medium.com/*@mariacatt42*/talking-about-talking-to-doctors-49778915ed4

NeurotrashWarrior Mon 02-Dec-19 20:20:44

no words.

Jesus.

arethereanyusernamesleftatall Mon 02-Dec-19 20:25:11

An except from the article linked in my post above. I hope this young woman does find her way to a lawyer some day soon...

Grace: I told her the gist of it: I started my physical transition at age 23, was very depressed, didn’t see any other way forward, got hormones, got surgery — and then I realized I was going nowhere and my fantasy of becoming a happy man was impossible. I told her that I unequivocally regretted my surgery and hormones. I told her that the surgery had brought me pain, regret, and grief. I told her I wished I had known there were other ways to deal with gender dysphoria.

“It sounds like you needed someone to offer you something besides hormones and surgery. And I’m sorry that we didn’t provide that.” A beat. “But I don’t see that as my role.”

Carey: Ooof. It’s not her role to provide something besides hormones and surgery. I would’ve lost my shit. How did you not lose your shit?

Grace: Ha. Well. It was very infuriating. Whose role is it, then? What the hell?

I was there on a mission, though, in Friendly Detransitioner Ambassador mode. So I tried to play it cool so she wouldn’t get defensive. I asked her, who is going to let people know about alternatives, if not doctors or therapists? If that’s something we need to figure out on our own, who does she think is going to be telling us about that? She didn’t really answer that.

As the conversation continued, she became closed off. Her body leaned away from me and she looked very uncomfortable. I think she wasn’t expecting me to be so angry and hurt.

I asked her if she followed WPATH Standards of Care.

“Of course.”

I brought up that in WPATH, they say you should be screened for “anxiety, depression, self-harm, a history of abuse and neglect, compulsivity, substance abuse, sexual concerns, personality disorders, eating disorders, psychotic disorders, and autistic spectrum disorders.” I mentioned that if I had been screened and treated for, for example, eating disorders, depression, and possibly compulsivity, that would have helped me a lot to lessen my gender distress.

She replied ”​the Standards of Care is a guideline that was never meant to be hard and fast.”

When I asked her if she thought there was any way to tell in advance if someone could benefit from transition, she said that there probably wasn’t, and they just had to try it and see. She said she wanted to err on the side of putting up too few “hoops” to jump through than too many. To her, if someone said they were trans, she believed them, and that was all she needed. “And you come to me and tell me you’re not trans, and I believe you now, too,” she added.

On the subject of diagnosing people with gender dysphoria/being trans, she said that she “decided early on that it [Gender Dysphoria] wasn’t a diagnosis she could make. Like I can’t determine whether someone doesn’t identify with the body that they were given.”

That stunned me. I asked her, so, who diagnosed me with gender dysphoria? She admitted that she did, in fact, write me the diagnosis. I have the paperwork.

So that was strange. It seemed really bizarre that she would say verbatim that she couldn’t diagnose gender dysphoria but that she did it anyway. I wondered to myself: what would a lawyer think of this? I mean, I certainly misdiagnosed myself as someone who would benefit from transition. I won’t deny that. But she’s the doctor. Are patients expected to be able to diagnose themselves accurately for, say, schizophrenia or breast cancer, and receive treatment with no questions asked?

arethereanyusernamesleftatall Mon 02-Dec-19 20:31:44

This bit also stuck with me:

When I got out of the office, I kept repeating, oh my god, oh my god. I was just a lab rat. She never knew what she was doing at all. I felt a little vindicated on one hand — I wasn’t the only one acting irrationally. I realized my doctor had been acting very unprofessionally.

I saw that in retrospect, all of my professionals had done nothing to offer me any other options. I had a strange sense of understanding for my former self. At the time, I thought gender dysphoria was only treatable by hormones and surgery. It had felt like I had no options. Absolutely all of the information available to me from professionals told me that story.

A larger sense of dread enveloped me when I thought more about it. I felt so stupid for falling for a charletan like her, but I also felt outraged. She was supposed to be a doctor. She’s the one who went to med school. She was supposed to be prescribing medicine. And she had admitted that she had no way of diagnosing gender dysphoria. It felt so wrong.

How many other people would suffer like I had? I knew she was treating minors and prescribing puberty blockers.

When I told her there would be more people like me, she had said “Of course.” Of course? Of course? Well, what’s the plan for people like me? It seemed like she took no responsibility for her part in the system.

arethereanyusernamesleftatall Mon 02-Dec-19 20:32:49

The law suits can't start a moment too soon.

TinselAngel Mon 02-Dec-19 20:36:51

I would happily contribute to a crowdfunder for a lawsuit.

I did wonder what the Doctor was thinking as he sat there on Saturday, scribbling furiously in a notebook while everybody else was moved by those young girls' tragic stories.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 02-Dec-19 20:42:46

The law suits can't start a moment too soon.

Yup. That's one of the few things that will actually help stop this.

dayoftheclownfish Mon 02-Dec-19 20:44:45

Here is the link to Lorimer's website:

gendercare.co.uk/history-of-gendercare.shtml

When read in context, it sounds less crass. But it's a healthy reminder that medical professionals are not selfless creatures. That's why strict regulation is so, so important in medicine. Activists can't be calling the shots.

It's undeniable, though, that Lorimer was looking for a 'gap-in-the-market' and knew that some of his colleagues would see him as a 'mindless hormone-dispenser'.

I wonder if he will take this down now?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 02-Dec-19 20:54:17

Just saw this linked on Twitter

www.marketwatch.com/press-release/Sex-Reassignment-Surgery-Market-2018-In-Depth-Analysis-of-Industry-Share-Size-Growth-Outlook-up-to-2024-2019-01-26

Sex Reassignment Surgery Market will exceed USD 968 million by 2024; as per a new research report. Increase in number of gender reassignment surgical procedures across the world will drive the growth of sex reassignment surgery market. There has been an increase in the patients wanting to change their sex from male to female or vice versa, increasing nearly fourfold in the last decade.

A concerning number of transgender patients that have undergone gender reassignment surgeries have expressed regrets, suicidal thoughts and depression. Increase in number of sex change regret incidence will affect the growth of sex reassignment market as it will lead to decline in the number of people opting for surgical procedures

littlbrowndog Mon 02-Dec-19 20:57:33

How terrible

Making money from people’s distress.

Just awful

littlbrowndog Mon 02-Dec-19 21:02:29

God how awful

He saw the chance to make money.

Themyscira Mon 02-Dec-19 21:10:36

Remember how we have an MP who can see people's souls?

I wonder what she sees in these people. Probably nothing

SonicVersusGynaephobia Mon 02-Dec-19 21:15:34

Is Stuart Lorimer a gay man (or male sexed person, I don't know how he identifies)?

vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 21:23:24

I read the whole thing and really didn't think it sounded less crass in context. There's no context to me that could justify saying that.

vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 21:24:08

I think he's a gay man, not sure though.

vaginafetishist Mon 02-Dec-19 21:26:57

Rereading it, I think it's worse, nothing about a motivation to alleviate dysphoria or trans rights or whatever. Just musing on the tension between the NHS and private practice.

drspouse Mon 02-Dec-19 21:36:27

Apparently nobody diagnoses themselves with gender dysphoria.

RagingBall Mon 02-Dec-19 23:29:29

He's an arse. He and his mates sat on the back row muttering between themselves loud enough to annoy people either side. He was scribbling away, none of them showed any consideration or compassion for the detransitioners.

I would have more respect for him if he'd stated that he went to understand negative experiences so he can improve his practices. But he didn't.

And those statements on his own website show him up to be a pretty unpleasant person, potentially exploiting vulnerable people to line his own pockets. He's despicable.

DuMondeB Mon 02-Dec-19 23:51:27

I hope he uses the multiple notes he took to understand that he needs to exercise more caution when diagnosing young, female transitioners.

2 of the young women on the panel said that before being diagnosed with gender dysphoria they had anorexia, one of whom described reaching the point where it was threatening her life. Both went on to take testosterone and have double mastectomies, one also had hysterectomy and oophorectomy (age 21). How a doctor can ok that knowing their clinical histories is beyond me.

I really hope Dr Lorimer learned something - even if it’s only that he needs to sort his shit before the lawyers come knocking.

Goosefoot Mon 02-Dec-19 23:52:31

I suppose in some sense this is why almost anyone sets up a private clinic. There are a few exceptions, but generally it is to make more money than you could working for the public. But the hope, at least my hope, is that doctors still maintain a sense of their deeper and primary duty to patients, rather than just seeing them as income generators.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Tue 03-Dec-19 00:05:50

I'm sure the notes were on trying to find vulnerabilities that he can use against former patients if and when they sue him.

RedHoodGirl Tue 03-Dec-19 00:13:26

Maybe he went to discover more about detransitioners? After all, the event was advertised as being open to everyone.

RagingBall Tue 03-Dec-19 00:30:00

Maybe he did. But his general demeanour didn't give the impression of sympathy or concern. I'd like to be wrong though.

DuMondeB Tue 03-Dec-19 01:24:03

If you were there to learn, surely you would applaud those sharing their personal experiences for you to learn from?

The panel of detransitioned women received a standing ovation from everyone present except Lorimer and his row of friends/acquaintances/colleagues.

They left while the applause happened.

BeardedVulture Tue 03-Dec-19 06:14:37

Lorimer said at that We’re Still Here conference that ROGD was “evidence free”.

He was also one of the doctors who wrote to the regulatory body about Helen Webberley’s GenderGP business. I wonder if it wasn’t so much about concern as it was about removing a competitor in a niche field of private medicine.

NeurotrashWarrior Tue 03-Dec-19 06:54:24

An unintended outcome of the event; shedding light on active harm by Drs.

NeurotrashWarrior Tue 03-Dec-19 06:58:24

Michele Moore has described anorexic patients being then diagnosed with GD and then being put on that pathway, clinicians saying that this this the cause of their issues and if treated, the anorexia will go. But then yp are left with a gd diagnosis, still anorexic, and no treatment for the anorexia. And treatment for that becomes incredibly hard when they're not under children's services.

ThePurported Tue 03-Dec-19 07:05:27

He is clearly quite, um, entrepreneurial. Maybe he is planning a move into detransitioning services?

TransWolf Tue 03-Dec-19 07:30:16

I’m struggling to understand some of the pile on about Dr Lorimer going on in here.

Firstly I’m a bit confused with the “furious” scribbling down of notes - I feel that’s quite a emotive statement to be making when someone may have just been concentrating.

As for not applauding if someone is in a capacity to listen then it’s often better that they maintain a neutral stance.

I transitioned (from female to male) a number of years ago and did see him when I was having GIC (Gender Identity Clinic) appointments and I have to say he’s lovely.

Also he only sees adults in any of his clinics. The process for me to have hormones took a long time - around 2 years.

He was very good to talk to, great listener and was someone I’d feel pleased to see. I also (as part of NHS system) saw other doctors too but I felt I had the best rapport with him.

I feel that without having the benefit of meeting him, some of the assumptions being made about him are inaccurate and positioning him to be something he isn’t because he stands for something that people aren’t in support of.

I personally am uncomfortable seeing a thread that is praising Posie Parker given that she seems to have links with far right groups and commentators and I don’t seem to see anyone having an issue with that (well on here anyway)

OneEpisode Tue 03-Dec-19 07:42:41

Hi Transwolf thank you for coming to share your experience. How many appointments did you have with Dr Lorrimer before he was ready to prescribe T?

TinselAngel Tue 03-Dec-19 07:52:28

Hi'*Transwolf*, great to have somebody with RL experience here. What attempts were made by Dr Lorimer to explore alternative pathways with you, that wouldn't require a life time of medication and surgery? Does he suggest any therapy?

drspouse Tue 03-Dec-19 08:06:44

Another question for Transwolf, were all other mental health diagnoses ruled out before diagnosing gender dysphoria as per WPATH guidelines?
Had you decided or worked out you had gender dysphoria before you saw a clinician?

KatvonHostileExtremist Tue 03-Dec-19 08:11:29

Me too! Hi transwolf
Did you chat to other trans people prior to meeting dr SL about what to say in the consultation?

TransWolf Tue 03-Dec-19 08:33:41

Good Morning

Thanks for the welcome. I do like to talk and would be happy to do so here.

Dr Lorimer wasn’t my prescribing doctor for testosterone as I’d already started it when I started seeing him.

I’ve been on a relatively low dose of Testosterone for around 7 years now and only side effects is a lower voice, facial hair and a widows peak.

For context by the time I started using a GIC I was 4 years into transition and 2 months on hormones. I started transitioning when I was 25 and now I am 35.

Dr Lorimer’s only comments on my hormone usage was to make sure I had regular endocrinology check-ups which I would also have when at the clinic.

He definitely never pushed anything onto me if that’s what’s being implied. He also very much focussed on my well being and was someone I felt I could speak to.

I wanted to have a mastectomy not a Phalloplasty. He showed no opinion on this or what I should have but listened and answered any questions I had about either procedure as naturally I did have some.

At that time I was also navigating some of the complexities of being someone who was previously a gold star lesbian to now identifying as male but didn’t feel I was a straight male I think having someone LGB to talk to in my case was very helpful as people don’t transition necessarily to change sexual orientation but it does evolve when you do transition.

For example since taking hormones I do have attraction to men that I didn’t have before but I think there is something about me that is inherently not straight at all.

I kept being told by some lesbians that it would be better if I was butch but the thing was I was never butch and I have nothing against it but it wasn’t me.

In many ways I’d have had an easy life if I would have been able to continue living in my previous life but I was absolutely miserable and it wasn’t me. I do feel happy now as I have the life I want but I’m also really glad I took my time.

A lot of our sessions we had together (I met him in total 5 times over a 3 year period) were very open discussions. On producing evidence that i’d changed my name and bank slips and payslips etc he did write a letter so I could get a new passport with male

I also broached the subject of wanting a GRC (Gender Recognition Certificate) and he was happy to write a letter that I needed for the application but then I decided not to have one as in principle I didn’t agree with the process nor have I needed one but for some people it is important and in certain industries such as military you need one in order to transition at work.

He was a great doctor to have. For clarity as I’ve seen in other places some conflation (not necessarily here) but he only works with adults, and isn’t someone who pushes any agendas or prescribes a particular narrative.

From my experience I would say he would only start hormone treatment/ surgery referrals if it’s what a patient wants and also is ready for. He wouldn’t rubber stamp stuff if someone was unsure or at risk.

He does focus a lot on the wellbeing of a person.

There are people who complain he won’t do things quickly enough so I feel in some ways he can’t win whatever he does.

I am aware he represents something that people don’t feel comfortable with but for people who have wanted support from him and required a gender doctor he is one of the best.

NeurotrashWarrior Tue 03-Dec-19 08:47:09

Thank you transwolf for your experiences.

I feel it's important to note you were 25. Most of the issues discussed here and objections to the ideology are around the medical transition of children and teens, given the human brain is still developing till around 25.

I'm glad to note he only treats adults. Perhaps his issue with dr Webberly?

Hopefully he is able to be open minded enough to now realise detransitioners do exist.

drspouse Tue 03-Dec-19 08:52:49

I also suspect that being 35 now you are not likely to have been influenced by social media in the way that deeply concerns many of us WRT today's teenagers and very young adults (who he will be seeing).

NeurotrashWarrior Tue 03-Dec-19 08:53:20

Could you elaborate on what a 'gold star lesbian' means please?

ThePurported Tue 03-Dec-19 08:54:32

As for not applauding if someone is in a capacity to listen then it’s often better that they maintain a neutral stance.

I agree, actually, and I really hope Dr Lorimer is listening. He has been strangely incurious about issues like ROGD until now.

Kit19 Tue 03-Dec-19 09:04:15

Thank you for sharing that @TransWolf you didn’t have to & it’s appreciated. You sound content with where you are at & that’s great.

I work in a field where patient experiences are used a lot & it’s hard to get up & share in front of a room full of people. Whether Dr Lorimer agreed or not with what these women were saying, he should appreciate their willingness to share what are clearly deeply painful experiences on a human level. To not applaud the fact they have opened themselves up to public scrutiny when they didn't have too have seems pretty off to me, it’s basic manners apart from anything.

TheNameGames Tue 03-Dec-19 09:06:44

Gold star lesbian / gold star gay = someone who has never had sex with the opposite sex.. or, as the most of people like to refer to it as = lesbian/gay

vaginafetishist Tue 03-Dec-19 09:06:53

Thank you for sharing your experience Transwolf. I'm glad you are happy with your decisions.

NellieEllie Tue 03-Dec-19 09:23:48

It is interesting to hear of your experiences Transwolf.

Personally I don’t think a doctor in private practice identifying a “gap in the market”, is in itself anything any more immoral than any consultant with a private practice. In the context of the actual website, he seems to be saying that there were not quality services available, he thought he could provide them, and also saw it as a professional challenge.

Trans wolf’s experience is as an adult already transitioning. I think this is different from the child/young adult approaching at the point of wanting to transition. At that point, affirmation should NOT be the approach. Rather investigation, questioning, assessment.

However, I also think that if anyone is seeking irreversible and dramatic surgery like a mastectomy, again, their motives should be questioned, and dysphoria assessed. @TransWolf , you say he answered questions but gave no opinion re phalloplasty or mastectomy? I think he should have given specific information about these procedures, or at least the one you opted for. And I think he should have explored why you wanted this. I don’t think a more passive just answering questions is enough to be honest. I get that it is easier for the patient not to deal with questions, that it can be awkward for a doctor to quiz an adult in this way. But it is often vulnerable people with other issues who seek transition, and the dreadful potential of regretting such a visceral irreversible procedure means that caution really must be exercised.

I think it is good that he attended the conference. Even if it has not given him pause for thought yet, hopefully it will be part of a process, now that detransitioning is more out there.

LangCleg Tue 03-Dec-19 09:24:22

Welcome to FWR, Transwolf.

Is it, therefore, your opinion that Lorimer attended this event in order to gain information about better diagnosing young women who are questioning their "gender"?

Because you describe a very comfortable atmosphere in his clinic. That's nice. However, if comfortable = affirmation, how do you propose such clinics avoid false positive diagnoses and treatments going forwards, thus avoiding regret, desisting and detransitioning.

I'm glad that you are happy with the interventions you have received, but the entire point of this meeting was that larger and larger numbers of women are coming forward to say that, in their cases, the interventions they received were inappropriate. Which is a serious issue, I'm sure you'll agree.

Justhadathought Tue 03-Dec-19 09:43:27

He was very good to talk to, great listener and was someone I’d feel pleased to see. I also (as part of NHS system) saw other doctors too but I felt I had the best rapport with him

Could you have felt this way because he was affirming everything you said, and offering you the solutions you wanted?

There was another audience member at the Manchester event who had worked with GIDS, and he said that there was a practice, and a culture, of total affirmation, and that even voicing concern was frowned upon.

DuMondeB Tue 03-Dec-19 09:44:02

* As for not applauding if someone is in a capacity to listen then it’s often better that they maintain a neutral stance.*

I was talking about the very end of the event, when applause could signify no more than thanks to those who organised and participated.

Lorimer often prescribes ‘bridging’ prescriptions to 18 year olds at the first appoint in his private practice - that seems quite different to your experience.

Justhadathought Tue 03-Dec-19 09:52:29

Firstly I’m a bit confused with the “furious” scribbling down of notes - I feel that’s quite a emotive statement to be making when someone may have just been concentrating

The nature of the event necessitated total concentration - to listen firstly, to the panel of experts, but then especially to the panel of young de-transitioners. The stories were intense. They each were very articulate, honest, and brave.

I can't help but feel that the gulf is so total between TRA ideology, and those who work to promote or enable it; and people critical of transgender ideology - that he could only have been listening in a detached and very clinical way, so to counter what was being said with ready made responses.

If he had listened with open heart and mind to what the young women had been saying he could not have helped but be moved. And he must have experienced doubt in his method if he had. Have to say I did not clap myself, as clapping is not really my way of expressing solidarity or empathy. Being 'fully present', is though

NeurotrashWarrior Tue 03-Dec-19 09:52:54

There is a prevailing opinion in today's society - and possibly in medical circles - that "treatment" for 'gender dysphoria' is a medical route.

The alternative (psychological care) doesn't seem to be given equal measure. But of course in private practice, you'd be unlikely to get as much interest, and it possibly wouldn't pay as well.

Increasingly it is being offered as an alternative for other forms of dysphoria that would potentially result in plastic surgery.

Are other treatment options being offered in private practice? Were you offered alternative treatment options wolf?

The issue is two fold: private practice relies on a level of custom as well as patient advertising/ enthusiasm about treatment. As many de transed people say, they were so determined that medical transition is the answer, they wouldn't entertain other options.

It's a self perpetuating circle. And why the de trans stories are an issue for private practice.

Justhadathought Tue 03-Dec-19 10:02:21

In many ways I’d have had an easy life if I would have been able to continue living in my previous life but I was absolutely miserable and it wasn’t me. I do feel happy now as I have the life I want but I’m also really glad I took my time

Thank you for your honesty.

Rather than, necessarily, pushing a narrative, is it not the case that Dr Lorimer affirms the path you have chosen; listens to, and affirms, your feelings - without judgment. He smooths the pathway you have chosen. Makes it possible? He is not a therapist, as such, but a gender consultant.....

Can I ask you what is the life that you wanted, and that you now have? Why do you feel you could not have that life before?

NeurotrashWarrior Tue 03-Dec-19 10:06:29

Lorimer often prescribes ‘bridging’ prescriptions to 18 year olds at the first appoint in his private practice - that seems quite different to your experience.

A lot has changed in 10 years. Referrals are much higher.

There will be many many more detransitioning people in another 10 years.

Affirmative approaches are coming into schools, on tv etc. It's almost impossible for children who are struggling with the issues of how gender affects society, and are also vulnerable (bathing in mind yp have other issues or conditions such as autism) to be immune to this affirmative approach.

It's vital there's balance to make sure people are choosing the correct path.

I'm glad you seem to be very happy wolf and it was clearly the correct route for you. There must be challenge and scrutiny for safeguarding.

And referring to alliances with 'the far right' as a critique of criticism and analysis doesn't wash in the slightest when we are discussing safeguarding.

Justhadathought Tue 03-Dec-19 10:09:41

*I’ve been on a relatively low dose of Testosterone for around 7 years now and only side effects is a lower voice, facial hair and a widows peak8

There was a quite a bit of discussion at the event about the effects of hormones. The fact that long term, and the more hidden health consequences, have not been studied.

Two of the women at the event had had hysterectomies and their ovaries removed too......the effects of testosterone are going to inter-play with oestrogen produced by the ovaries in those that still have ovaries, in a way that is different to to those who have had their ovaries removed........impacts on blood, circulation, bone density and any number of other initially less obvious 'side effects'. The body is systemic. Each part acts/functions in relation to the other parts.

Justhadathought Tue 03-Dec-19 10:18:23

Because you describe a very comfortable atmosphere in his clinic. That's nice. However, if comfortable = affirmation, how do you propose such clinics avoid false positive diagnoses and treatments going forwards, thus avoiding regret, desisting and detransitioning

Precisely!

The problem, though, is that to work as a gender clinician you have to accept the whole idea of transgender ideology...that it is possible to be born in the wrong body. For a clinician to suggest that there may be other roots to feelings of dysphoria, is to cast doubt on the practice. Also because clinical practice in GIDS always takes an affirmative approach - because it is believed that the child; the adolescent; the adult, knows their own feelings and process better than anyone else....there will never be any questioning - only listening.

It is a therapeutic approach which requires, first of all, that one has accepted that 'being trans' is a natural and healthy expression of the self - rather than a self struggling with various issues in life and unable, therefore, to integrate mind and body.

DuMondeB Tue 03-Dec-19 10:34:22

And honestly @Transwolf, if all transitioners started at 25, had several appointments before beginning medical transition and had no notable ill effects on their health and no regrets, I really wouldn’t be arsed about it.

Fact is, on Saturday I met 7 young women who have regrets, some of whom have had life altering medical procedures at 21 (as in, total hysterectomy, including ovaries) and who will now be life long medical patients.

In contrast, in my 40s, I had to have 4 counselling appointments before my hospital would even consider blood testing me for my mum’s BRCA2 fault, because a positive result would lead to the option of mastectomy/hysterectomy.

And that was after two bio children and a step child, the oldest of whom was already at university.

I want young, gender questioning women to be given the same respect and care for their health and fertility as I was given, as a middle aged woman with a potential cancer risk. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, especially when the procedures are the same but the consequences for younger women are so much greater.

Justhadathought Tue 03-Dec-19 11:03:10

As was suggested at the Manchester event, society largely follows technology, and in this case pharmacology and surgical technique.
In every age there have been dominant medical techniques and narratives that have shaped the treatment of human misery and suffering.

Aligned with the thinking and ideas behind Queer Theory, and post modernist ideas of the self and society....we have a full on transgender storm - fuelled by social media, pornography, fetish....and you name it........The most vulnerable, to my mind, are the children, the young girls and women who are being led along a path of medical and surgical intervention which will have life long consequences.

In an age where we should be looking to heal our relationship with nature, the earth, the planet and our bodies, instead we find a movement which is at odds with nature and the body...and using chemicals and crude surgery to attempt to 'fix' it.

Littlefishbloke Tue 03-Dec-19 11:46:00

Blimey a lot of Drivel and Mumsnet has a lot to answer for - Bigots aren't qualified practioners the last time I looked ! would it help if he was gay? or would that be another target of abuse ? A Right wing people forum, maybe start talking about Equality and see where that get you guys ! Good luck!

DuMondeB Tue 03-Dec-19 11:51:54

On the first panel were 4 ‘qualified practitioners’, 2 doctors, 1 psychotherapist, one psychologist.

There were other former and current employees of GIDs in the audience.

Happy to help clear up your obvious confusion, littlebloke

OldCrone Tue 03-Dec-19 12:03:00

He was also one of the doctors who wrote to the regulatory body about Helen Webberley’s GenderGP business.

I was going to ask for a source for this, but I've now found it here (in the answers to 'Are you being investigated by the GMC?').
www.gendergp.com/queries/

Found via this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3402111-The-UKs-gender-doctors

OldCrone Tue 03-Dec-19 12:06:12

Can I ask you what is the life that you wanted, and that you now have? Why do you feel you could not have that life before?

I'd also like an answer to this question Transwolf. I hope you'll come back to this thread with an answer.

Why people feel they need to change their bodies is a question which really does need to be answered.

SecondRow Tue 03-Dec-19 12:29:56

Hi Transwolf,
I don’t know if you saw this quote earlier from the link that a PP posted:

in WPATH, they say you should be screened for “anxiety, depression, self-harm, a history of abuse and neglect, compulsivity, substance abuse, sexual concerns, personality disorders, eating disorders, psychotic disorders, and autistic spectrum disorders.”

I know you said it was 2 years before you got hormones, so what was happening in those 2 years? Was it just waiting for appointments or would you say you were thoroughly screened for all these?

(I know this was all before you met Dr. Lorimer. Were the appointments you had with him related to the surgery pathway?)

Thanks for posting here, by the way smile. I hope you find that we are genuinely wanting to hear trans men’s voices.

OhHolyJesus Tue 03-Dec-19 13:05:39

This is a slight aside I realise but having read all that trans wolf and the responses I was reminded that a dentist once asked me if I was bulimic. I think there is a duty of care for patients and it can involve intrusive questions. It is also necessary at times for safeguarding. I realise that you were and are an adult and have made these decisions as an adult but it's clear that even as adults we can regret decisions we were once very firm in. I'm happy that you have no such regrets and if I was able to I would ensure that everyone was 25+ before making such permanent things decisions.

StillWeRise Tue 03-Dec-19 21:06:50

yes I think the contrats between the cautious approach women receive when they eg ask for sterilisation and the treatment of these young women needs explaining

KatvonHostileExtremist Tue 03-Dec-19 21:19:50

www.economist.com/open-future/2019/12/03/gender-identity-is-hard-but-jumping-to-medical-solutions-is-worse

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