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Nicola Sturgeon - Radio 5 Live - this morning

(38 Posts)
flintyminty Mon 02-Dec-19 10:48:59

I haven't listenend to this but DH flagged up that she answered questions on gender and self-id. Will try and catch up later.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000bvth

Sorry, don't know the start point for the topic.

nauticant Mon 02-Dec-19 10:59:12

Go to 43.14.

nauticant Mon 02-Dec-19 11:07:55

A quick summary:

She's a big fan of "trans rights", there's lots of transphobia in society, there's no tension between "trans rights" and feminism, women's refuges are currently accessible to transwomen so enabling that further won't cause problems, she's not proposing to amend the Equality Act, it's the Gender Recognition Act that she wants to change and since you don't need a GRC to access single sex spaces as things current stand, effectively nothing changes.

Changing the Gender Recognition Act will change nothing beyond simply enabling trans people to get their GRC.

Because she's a long-term campaigner for feminism, anything she's proposing by definition cannot go against women's rights.

donquixotedelamancha Mon 02-Dec-19 11:14:30

I was very impressed with the interviewer pushing for precise answers to relevant questions.

I thought her answers amounted to: we are committed to helping women understand why being thrown under the bus is fine.

Qcng Mon 02-Dec-19 11:18:43

Well, that's a typical politician bullshit answer.

fascinated Mon 02-Dec-19 11:22:26

My feeling is, if she was so close to Salmond all those years she must have known what kind of man he was, but chose to turn a blind eye..... I know it isn’t down to her to sort out his issues, but perhaps it shows that she was brought up with and has internalised the idea that sexual harassment isn’t that big a deal.

MangoesAreMyFavourite Mon 02-Dec-19 11:45:31

we are committed to helping women understand why being thrown under the bus is fine.

Great paraphrasing. I'll keep this in mind, it's sure to come in handy!

BingBongSong Mon 02-Dec-19 11:58:11

I heard this on the way to do the grocery shop. Non-binary Ben asked her what she was going to do about transphobia in the SNP, didn't name any names and when asked to give examples, pointed to the Women's Declaration, which they declared to be transphobic.

Nicola repeated that she was a feminist a few times, and said that the Equalities Act allowed transwomen into women's refuges already and she was not here to change that.

No mention of girls or women transitioning.

Michelleoftheresistance Mon 02-Dec-19 12:02:34

we are committed to helping women understand why being thrown under the bus is fine.

That about nails it.

However I'm with the increasingly large group of people committed to helping people understand Nicola and others pushing this view are out of their tiny minds.

Ereshkigal Mon 02-Dec-19 12:35:22

and said that the Equalities Act allowed transwomen into women's refuges already

She either hasn't got a clue, or she's being deeply disingenuous.

OllyBJolly Mon 02-Dec-19 12:46:25

I'm not an SNP member or supporter, but I am a huge admirer of Nicola Sturgeon. She has principles, she articulates them well, she seems to genuinely care about people, she understands what needs done. And then you hear her views on this. I don't understand.

I do hate the "I've been a feminist all my life <chuckle>" she prefaces every second sentence with when she's on this topic, as if that makes her words more valid.

I do hope there is a giant apology coming once she wakes up.

OldCrone Mon 02-Dec-19 13:19:28

Changing the Gender Recognition Act will change nothing beyond simply enabling trans people to get their GRC.

What is the benefit for trans people in getting a GRC? If it confers no benefits why are they so keen for it to be easier?

GeordieTerf Mon 02-Dec-19 13:23:20

Tbf, at least Nicola answers the questions directly. Most politicians just dance around the issue cowardly.

nauticant Mon 02-Dec-19 13:26:24

Because OldCrone at the moment we aren't being nice and if there's one thing that is paramount above all others it's to be nice.

(But don't go expecting niceness in return. Or that other groups should also have an absolute entitlement to receiving niceness.)

Michelleoftheresistance Mon 02-Dec-19 14:11:25

Tbf, at least Nicola answers the questions directly. Most politicians just dance around the issue cowardly.

That's a sticky one isn't it....

General public do you prefer a politician who won't actually answer a question and commit to an answer that makes them look bad...

Or one who looks you straight in the eye and directly lies to you such as 'there's no conflict with women's rights'?

Frankly I've got more time for the ones with enough conscience to actually hem and haw. My ideal would be someone with the guts to look women in the eye and say 'this absolutely fucks women over and reduces them to lower class citizens with males controlling every single space and many vulnerable women driven out of society. And I think this is good because...…(never yet heard a reason other than poooooor men) so vote for me.'

If they believe in, stand up for it. Own it. If it's the right thing to do, argue for it and explain why, honestly. If you can't explain it and justify it without sympathy bids and lies, then they know as well as I know that it's as crooked as a dog's hind leg. The general public learned a lot from Tony Blair; they're not trusting and they're not stupid.

AnyOldPrion Mon 02-Dec-19 16:05:57

She's a big fan of "trans rights", there's lots of transphobia in society, there's no tension between "trans rights" and feminism, women's refuges are currently accessible to transwomen so enabling that further won't cause problems, she's not proposing to amend the Equality Act, it's the Gender Recognition Act that she wants to change and since you don't need a GRC to access single sex spaces as things current stand, effectively nothing changes.

Changing the Gender Recognition Act will change nothing beyond simply enabling trans people to get their GRC.

Or in other words, “We are already flouting the law, and have been doing so for several years without anyone noticing, so now we’re making what we’ve been already doing legal.”

I suspect that might be how she sees it. They have introduced all these bad practices that are detrimental to women, but as nobody has objected within my hearing (until recently, but that’s just evil transphobes who can be ignored) I fully intend to storm ahead.

I confess that one of the most surprising things in all this, is that in the recent past, the SNP have been generally popular as they’re better at reading the room than some of the other parties. But this, when people actually understand what’s on the table, is very unpopular. Digging her heels in is quite a remarkable reaction.

Birdsfoottrefoil Mon 02-Dec-19 17:44:53

women's refuges are currently accessible to transwomen

That is because she made it a condition of receiving Scottish government funding. The fact that this means women are excluded from refuges or at least have to risk suffering further trauma to access them is by the by.

merrymouse Mon 02-Dec-19 17:59:53

What is the benefit for trans people in getting a GRC? If it confers no benefits why are they so keen for it to be easier?

And why would anybody want one if it can be obtained by anyone and nobody knows what it means?

What are the additional trans rights that will reduce transphobia?

How can trans rights be protected if 'trans' has no meaning?

It's all a mystery.

MadamBatty Mon 02-Dec-19 18:01:53

& if trans women are women what are they trending to?

It’s like the 7th secret of Fatima

SonicVersusGynaephobia Mon 02-Dec-19 23:06:06

Self-identifying Transwomen can already access single-sex spaces - yes, they can, if they "pass" and nobody notices. But the point is that they have no legal right to enter them. They can try, but if they are spotted they can be removed.

Giving any male who wants one (not just "genuine" transwomen) a GRC gives any man a legal position to argue that he can't be removed, no matter what his motive for being there. GRC makes it more difficult to exclude. (It shouldn't, but it does)

I agree that I'd rather politicians just started being honest about this. The gig is up. We know what the law says, we've had to work it out ourselves because all the public bodies who are meant to advise us (EHRC, Citizens Advice, etc) have all been captured.

donquixotedelamancha Mon 02-Dec-19 23:24:10

But the point is that they have no legal right to enter them.

That depends, in almost all cases, on whether the service provider/premises owner makes the service single sex or choose your own gender.

The Genderists are winning because they are convincing organisations that it is mean/damaging/unlawful to offer single sex services.

I'll bet that what Sturgeon said is true of most women's shelters in Scotland- because funding gets withdrawn if they try to be single sex.

It's true of Girl Guides because their legal advice is that it's too risky to hold the line.

It's true of several shop changing rooms, who don't want the negative publicity the Genderists were so good at producing.

It's true in prisons FFS.

All this Genderists have achieved despite the single sex exemptions to the EA still being in place, despite a duty on state organisations to consider the impact of policy on women.

What are the additional trans rights that will reduce transphobia?

The only use I can see is to get around the places that are trying to provide single sex services. There will be no situation where the EA can be applied to women, as a class, once self ID comes in.

OllyBJolly Tue 03-Dec-19 08:51:26

Here we have all the "women's" services in Scotland falling over themselves to prove how woke they are

www.commonspace.scot/articles/12402/what-you-need-know-scotland-s-women-s-sector-speaks-out-gender-recognition-trans

Ereshkigal Tue 03-Dec-19 08:58:51

That depends, in almost all cases, on whether the service provider/premises owner makes the service single sex or choose your own gender.

Yes, but framing it as if the Equality Act 2010 specifically grants this claimed legal right, as she and many TRAs do, is wrong. The EA does not deal with the subject of allowing males into female spaces apart from when discussing the single sex exemptions.

donquixotedelamancha Tue 03-Dec-19 09:11:26

Yes, but framing it as if the Equality Act 2010 specifically grants this claimed legal right, as she and many TRAs do, is wrong.

I agree. I think she/they are deliberately playing a linguistic trick to misrepresent the law; backed up by threats of various kinds to get organisations to go along with it. Sadly, I think it's working.

Ereshkigal Tue 03-Dec-19 09:25:38

Yes, here's a good example of that from TRA law professor Alex Sharpe. It's worth reading the comments, where Kati Bryan, someone I know who posts here from time to time (waves) calls Alex out on this directly and despite a valiant attempt to fob her off Alex eventually has to admit that there is no specific legal right granted by the EA for MTF trans to access women's spaces.

https://theconversation.com/what-would-changes-to-the-gender-recognition-act-mean-two-legal-views-103204#comments-container

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