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Accused of cherry-picking trans horror stories

(110 Posts)
PuertoVallarta Mon 02-Dec-19 05:42:59

How do you deal with people who say that pointing out transgressions by individual transwomen is like combing the news for examples of immigrants behaving badly?

I do understand this particular criticism of GC talking points.

I am quite vocal about this issue in my daily life. But sometimes I feel caught between a rock and a hard place:

“That never happens.”

“Well, Karen White...”

“You’re just picking isolated examples to paint a whole segment of the population as villains. You’re as bad as Trump in America.”

I don’t want to sound insane and obsessed as I keep rattling on, “Well, this happened, too! And another transwoman did this! And another did that!”

Heeeeeeelp meeeeeee?

Feminazi53 Tue 03-Dec-19 15:23:17

Here's a stat. Please double-check if you doubt it as I got off a twitter comment.

Since the year 2000 in the UK, there have been 4 trans people murdered. One of these was a trans person murdering another trans person.

In the same time span, 22 transwomen have murdered, one trans man has murdered.

SetYourselfOnFire Tue 03-Dec-19 00:18:57

I think if trans people and their allies actually believed what they were selling, they would be collecting these statistics and bragging about the data proving them right.

Goosefoot Mon 02-Dec-19 23:41:23

As for the vice versa, transmen are generally housed in the female estate. There's minimal appetite for housing them with men, because common sense.

This. No one thinks this is a good idea. No one argues we should stick females who have been taking testosterone and use male pronouns in men's prisons. It might be that the reasons that is obviously a terrible idea also apply the other way.

PurpleCrowbar Mon 02-Dec-19 23:37:17

& sex based exemptions are provided for, so let's not assume that we need to be banged up with 'legal females' with quite such resignation, shall we?

As for the vice versa, transmen are generally housed in the female estate. There's minimal appetite for housing them with men, because common sense.

merrymouse Mon 02-Dec-19 23:34:24

Some of those ‘male people’ as you describe them have a legal right to be recognised as females.

Self ID gives all male bodied people the right to be recognised as females.

Fieldofgreycorn Mon 02-Dec-19 23:20:15

Some of those ‘male people’ as you describe them have a legal right to be recognised as females. Vice versa with trans men.

Datun Mon 02-Dec-19 20:08:19

It's a nonsense argument. Some men want to predate on you, get over it for the sake of other mens feelings.

RuffleCrow Mon 02-Dec-19 19:59:28

Tell them men are in the news regularly for all the same crimes (strangely enough). does your accuser think it has to be all men who do these things before women and children deserve basic safeguarding?! shock

Inebriati Mon 02-Dec-19 19:14:24

If your response to violence against women is 'cherry picking' or 'you are discriminating' or 'NAMALT' or 'not all trans', instead of 'what can we do to help women stay safe and participate in society; then you are a misogynist enabling violence against women.

PurpleCrowbar Mon 02-Dec-19 19:11:58

I'm in full agreement on all those red lines, btw.

But I think the prison one is in extra bold, permanent marker with a red 3D printer fence.

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 18:48:22

Cut off. Like a lot of what we are discussing no one seems to be collecting these vital data. Just kind of... doing things without thinking about possible issues.

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 18:46:58

Anywhere with long term sleeping / showering accomodation should be single sex. This would include universities, shelters for the homeless and especially abuse shelters, and hospitals where single rooms don’t exist.

Third spaces should be made available for those who prefer or do not care about mixed sex services. I would use such mixed sex services.

It’s fine to say young women can choose to go to another university if they don’t want a male roommate but that is asking for her to turn her life upside down by delaying her education for a year... dunno how often this is happening. Like a

Datun Mon 02-Dec-19 18:46:05

Going with birth sex in all situations is calamitously unfair to trans women who have established lives as women and have not been convicted for sex crimes.

God, it's so tedious and unbelievably misogynistic that women are never, ever considered. Ever.

Fuck off with that shit.

If you don't want to be the men's prisons, sort it out, do something about it. Get off your bloody arses.

You can't inflict it on the women. No thanks.

IfNot Mon 02-Dec-19 18:41:57

Yes, male born people should be with other make born people only, but obviously vulnerable males should be housed separately. I don't really see why that would be do hard to do (and is often done already, as a pp has said).

ChattyLion Mon 02-Dec-19 18:36:37

What an excellent thread thank you OP. So many women have posted insightful, analytical points. Literally indisputable. grin

PurpleCrowbar Mon 02-Dec-19 18:20:17

I think a nice competent risk assessment would have trans women 'of good standing', if we are arguing that such a male category exists - & I'd concede the Jan Morrises of this world, should JM ever have their collar felt...

...could be offered trans units in male prisons.

Other provision for vulnerable males already exists. It's not perfect, & I'd happily support campaigning for it to be better.

But no, not males in women's jails. Not under any circumstances.

If you're in prison, you certainly didn't choose to be there. If we believe in sex segregated spaces to protect women at all, that has to be an inviolable one.

I can decide to eat elsewhere if the restaurant has unisex toilets. I can decide to not shop in shops that have unisex changing, or not swim at leisure centres, or not vote for a political society.

I can't decide that, having been incarcerated, I'd rather not shower with a male or share a cell with a male, unless the penal system agrees that this is unacceptable.

I think they must.

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 18:14:46

I’ve read on trans rights forums the following advantages for female people who are forced to use mixed sex spaces

1) closeted trans men (women) will see other trans people and have a Chance to escape their compulsory cis gender oppression.

2) children, and women who have experienced male violence will have the opportunity to get over their unreasonable fear of erect penises, which are completely natural and nothing to be worried about

Yes, the people making these arguments appeared to be serious and were encouraged in the correctness of their thinking by others in the forum.

Michelleoftheresistance Mon 02-Dec-19 18:12:46

Some of those female people will be excluded from access to any space by the presence of biological males regardless of how those males identify, in order to provide male people with more choice and respect for their feelings.

Please do explain how that's just, right and fair. Please. Because that defeats me entirely.

Michelleoftheresistance Mon 02-Dec-19 18:11:32

Not going with birth sex is calamitously unfair to female people, who have not been consulted about including males in their spaces at whatever stage of transition, without ever checking or gatekeeping their sincerity of purpose or agenda.

Kind of the whole issue for female people.

Fieldofgreycorn Mon 02-Dec-19 18:09:46

That men will identify as women to get access to females or escape the male estate isn’t in question as James Barrett comprehensively described in his submission to the government.

Many of those identifying as trans women in prison did so after conviction as they have been refused access to the female estate.

The MoJ made a mistake allowing KW in to a female prison. They went against recommendation. Why?

Probably more sensible to go with the traditional empirical evidence of sex

Going with birth sex in all situations is calamitously unfair to trans women who have established lives as women and have not been convicted for sex crimes.

Prisons should should be doing competent risk assessments, as with any prisoners shouldn’t they?

IfNot Mon 02-Dec-19 17:34:03

A male prisoner "Identifying" as a woman is no different to them "identifying" as Jewish to get the kosher meal.
If it makes their time inside more pleasant, trust me they will identify as a three toed sloth.
I don't think (I might be wrong) that anyone has said transwomen are more of a threat to women and children than men are?
I thought the issue was that allowing men to self id in effect allows any man to walk into a woman's space (or be locked up with women).
Whenever I have mentioned the men in women's prisons things to anyone, the first thing they say is how it really isn't safe to put transwomen in with men. So the general perception is of tw as very effeminate and vulnerable.
Well some will definitely be at risk in a men's wing, just like some younger, weaker men will be,and protecting them from harm IS really important, just not at the expense of ALL the women.
The only people who get straight away that men really can't be housed with women are actual prison staff, who are dealing with this every day, and are just not listened to by the decision makers in the MoJ.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Mon 02-Dec-19 16:53:47

I'm not sure either of these is the conclusion Free was actually going for,

I'd guess free doesn't really know what they were going for either but the idea to argue against EVERYTHING we say sounded good in their head.

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 16:46:25

Well, free appears to be arguing actually that the source is right wing propaganda and is entirely made up.

Which is why it would be helpful to have any other data and more studies on this issue. And indeed on other issues such as the causes of poor health outcomes for trans people. Currently such research is not being conducted as far as I know. I’ve been advised that bad health outcomes for trans people are due to bigotry against them but I’ve never seen A study that measures that specifically. More seems to be a hand wave to explain the data from other studies.

PurpleCrowbar Mon 02-Dec-19 16:36:24

The thing is, I do agree that it's entirely possible that no one knows how many prisoners regard themselves as trans.


A) some of the 1/50 who so self describe might be lying. We can only speculate as to why someone would invent such a story about themself, & what advantage they'd hope to gain by so doing.

But if we admit that some of these people are liars, that's quite a blow to self ID as a goal.


B) some of the other 49/50 prisoners are secretly trans, but not open about it. They are choosing instead to present as their biological sex.

Again, could be. Who knows?

But then we are saying that 'being trans' is even more over represented in the criminal population than 1/50.

Which is tricky, if we're committed to trans people being just as law abiding as the gen pop.

& we are still saying that self ID is wholly unreliable.

I'm not sure either of these is the conclusion Free was actually going for, but I can't see any others.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Mon 02-Dec-19 16:23:56

There never are any.

At least with insightful posts like frees more and more people are seeing FWR for what it actually is, he/she certainly showed us and the rest of the world that mumsnet is a site of 12 people who aren't worth 4 pages of incoherent rants because nobody agrees with FWR.

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