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Blaming women for men's suicide

(90 Posts)
Gingerkittykat Sun 01-Dec-19 16:35:03

Ex blamed for causing mean's suicide.

I'm so angry at this article, and not just because I am arguing with a local MRA about it. The man was obviously in a bad place and let down badly by mental health services but lets blame the woman because that is easier.

Fraggling Thu 05-Dec-19 16:01:45

Putting the onus on individual members of the public, who may be vulnerable / not will off enough to do so, is a rubbish idea.

The law is there for people who can use it. But society or groups within society can and do effect change for the better.

This is 'no such thing as society' and everyone for themselves to the max. Like I said before. No thanks.

Fraggling Thu 05-Dec-19 15:56:17

'Members of the public complaining about news articles don’t have much impact.'

In your opinion.

PlanDeRaccordement Thu 05-Dec-19 09:26:36

Fraggling, I do not know why you insist on mischaracterising my words.
It’s the same process with any crime or civil wrong. The victim has to report and file charges. Members of the public complaining about news articles don’t have much impact.

I did not say any of those things you listed from none of your businesses to the last word of your post- you are choosing to mischaracterise my comments.

My stating facts on what works to change things for women (file a legal action) compared to what does not work to change things (Email a whiny complaint). What is more helpful on a feminist page? Saying what works or defending blindly what does not work? Which helps women more?

PlanDeRaccordement Thu 05-Dec-19 09:11:00

FWR-
I may be vindictive but while I 100% agree with you that abusive men should be charged with multiple counts of battery, assault, rape, all the torture they did, I still think that if they drove a woman to suicide they should also be charged with manslaughter as well. A life has not only been ruined but taken. There should be justice.

Fortunately, charging people who drive others to suicide with manslaughter has already changed. It is already set in legal precedent.

I think charging for multiple counts also has some legal precedent but would need to be expanded to dv cases. That’s a change I support completely.

FWRLurker Wed 04-Dec-19 19:44:06

we let down the many many more women who are victims of abusive men. 3 die every week. THAT is misogyny in my opinion.

Many women stay because their abusive partners threaten suicide. It’s incredibly common. In my opinion The type of article like the one in the OP that blames women for what men choose to do is part of what leads to this. “Oh I Can’t leave him or I’ll be blamed for his suicide / his ex or family will think it’s my fault”.

There’s a reason that the kind of case you’re talking about is rare and should remain rare. I would personally prefer that abuser were charged with Every single count of physical abuse / battery / torture he’s guilty of. Should be hundreds or dozens of events and ought to be enough to lock him up for decades without the manslaughter charge.

Sadly we usually charge men with 1 count of domestic battery for years of torture. Let’s change that first.

Fraggling Wed 04-Dec-19 16:47:00

'In addition, if the way the media handled this one case was against journalistic standards, then it is up to the woman or her family to file a suit for defamation or misuse of private information against the media outlet(s).'

None of your business
Keep your nose out
Nothing you can do
Don't bother

On fwr of all places.

Women, accept the world, don't bother trying to change it for the better for women (or anyone else? Or just women?).

No thanks.

allmywhat Wed 04-Dec-19 16:43:48

NotBad

Thanks for the inspiration. I have complained to IPSO too.
www.ipso.co.uk/complain/complaints-form/

I complained on the grounds of Accuracy - that headline is clearly not supported by the facts.

I also complained on the grounds of Reporting Suicide - I'm less sure about that one, it seems limited to not describing weapons used. But the aim of that clause is to prevent further suicides inspired by the article. If coercive controllers who weaponise suicide against their victims see that article, it will affirm to them that their tactics are likely to work and that their ex will be blamed if they commit suicide.

My first IPSO complaint and I don't know how they usually think so perhaps it will be dismissed out of hand. But I hope others will complain too. That reporting is horrific.

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 16:23:55

No I’m not. I’m disagreeing with those who say you can never hold a person responsible for another person’s suicide. The misogyny is in holding this belief that a person can never ever drive another person to kill them self because if that were true, then you’d have to release Nicolas Allen from his ten year prison sentence:

He was jailed in 2017 for 10 years for the manslaughter of his ex-girlfriend after she killed herself as a "direct result" of his controlling behaviour. Nicholas Allen was jailed after what is thought to be the first UK manslaughter case brought in such circumstances. Allen, 47, sent Justene Reece abusive voicemails, texts and Facebook messages and stalked her, the trial heard. Ms Reece, who was 46, hanged herself in February and left a note saying "I've run out of fight." A consultant psychiatrist who reviewed all the evidence and medical records said she had been in a "substantially abnormal" mental state, suffering from depression, panic attacks and feelings of hopelessness.

We all know more men abuse and control women than the other way around. By trying to protect the few abusive women, we let down the many many more women who are victims of abusive men. 3 die every week. THAT is misogyny in my opinion.

FWRLurker Wed 04-Dec-19 16:14:13

Plan you’re In essence telling women they shouldn’t be mad about blatant misogyny in the press and should just let it go and stop making such a fuss.

No.

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 15:58:45

XX- I see it is a crime to be a realist which is not defeatist by the way. Must we all be an optimistic Don Quixote here?
Strange, on any other feminist thread it is acceptable to recognise the reality of the lack of women’s power within a patriarchal system, but apparently not on this thread.

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 15:46:35

Oh, and Fraggling
Your story about women not being called prostitutes in the press anymore is a nice one. But today the U.K. daily mail has this headline for an article:
“Mother of prostitute, 23, who killed her toddler daughters brands her a 'monster' and reveals she knew she'd murder them as 'they got in the way of her escort work' before selling their dresses and pyjamas on FACEBOOK”

XXMansplainShieldActive Wed 04-Dec-19 15:45:45

Be defeatist all you want but lay off other women trying to make a difference. Maybe even thank them?

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 15:41:38

Fraggling,
It’s not a “gross lie” to be realistic about how little power and influence a consumer of a free product has.
In addition, if the way the media handled this one case was against journalistic standards, then it is up to the woman or her family to file a suit for defamation or misuse of private information against the media outlet(s).
But even being sued for damages hasn’t stopped the media from being sensationalist. They see paying off the odd settlement as a cost of doing business.
No one is immune. Even Prince Harry and Meghan Markle have a law suit against several news outlets for negative coverage with racial undertones.

Coyoacan Wed 04-Dec-19 14:22:10

As I say, I think this breaks the rules about how the media cover suicide to avoid copycat suicides

Fraggling Wed 04-Dec-19 08:36:12

Yes there are press standards which women's groups have got changed over the years in various ways.

Eg when women who were prostitutes were murdered, when I was young, that was how they were described. Not woman murdered, not a name, but prostitute murdered.

That has changed after work by women's groups, to get these women humanised, treated with more respect.

The idea that these things can't be changed is a gross lie and I wonder why anyone would come onto a feminism board and tell women not to bother trying to make things better.

NotBadConsidering Wed 04-Dec-19 06:36:55

I don’t think your complaint to the editor will accomplish anything

And that’s why I complained to IPSO. There are press standards.

The portrayal of women in death in the media resulted in IPSO publishing guidelines:

act.welevelup.org/campaigns/54

after people complained enough. So it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that it enough people complain about this sort of reporting then it will change too.

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 05:35:58

This thread is about how women are portrayed in the media, whether that be about a man’s suicide, a man who kills his partner/family, the personal lives of female victims etc etc.

Yes. That was original topic and it is being discussed and I have posted on it. But then people started posting opinions contrary to fact and so there was a need to post a few U.K. facts.

To get back to the original topic would be nice, I agree. I don’t think your complaint to the editor will accomplish anything. They generate income by clicks and you have no consumer power in the case of free online news. So they will continue to word titles as click bait because that is how they fund their salaries.

It’s also not a women’s issue as the press does this constantly towards all people.

NotBadConsidering Tue 03-Dec-19 22:41:26

There isn’t really anything that can be done about it.

Yes there bloody well is. You can focus on this issue rather than be distracted and talk about another issue and complain to the editor and/or IPSO like I’ve done.

This thread is about how women are portrayed in the media, whether that be about a man’s suicide, a man who kills his partner/family, the personal lives of female victims etc etc. It can be changed with direct action. It won’t be changed by arguing with someone about something off topic.

XXMansplainShieldActive Tue 03-Dec-19 21:53:08

So awful, if he died of cancer or a stroke would that be the fault of a woman in his life too?

People who take their own lives do exactly that. Nobody else takes their lives for them.

"Look what you made me do" cannot be applied and "look what you made him do" is just another version of that.

There is some research published this week showing the structural changes in people's brains that lead them to take their own lives. The sooner poor mental health is treated as the illness it is the better.

www.news-medical.net/news/20191202/Researchers-identify-brain-networks-that-play-key-role-in-suicide-risk.aspx

PlanDeRaccordement Tue 03-Dec-19 21:02:19

Notbad..
I agreed a few pages back that thebpress should in an ideal world not report anything other than what an inquest or investigation has released. Sadly, the press reports things sensationally all the time about everything. Lives and reputations have been ruined by the press. There isn’t really anything that can be done about it.

PlanDeRaccordement Tue 03-Dec-19 20:59:16

You can all believe it’s not true that men and women use the same methods in the same order of frequency but you are not arguing with me and an opinion of a random Frenchwomen on the internet but the actual facts of real life suicides in the U.K. as reported by the U.K.’s ONS

Mumsnet, where UK wide tracked and reported facts by ONS can be dismissed with repeated “but men chose more violent methods this charity said so in some suicide thing I went to ages ago” and another person chiming in “But, I know 3 farmers who have shot themselves,....”

Yet the same ONS that reports on facts of majority male violence is counted to be 100% true.

You can’t pick and choose facts. You can’t use personal anecdotes to replace facts. They simply are. I’m not desperate, I’m astonished at the lack of a fact based discussion.

NotBadConsidering Tue 03-Dec-19 20:33:06

I’ll say it again: this thread is about whether the press should present blame in a headline when the details of the case don’t specify that to be true.

I don’t know why people are trying to argue about attributing blame in suicide. The issue here is this publication has already done so without basis.

Why have they done this? Why is it acceptable?

LongLiveThePenis Tue 03-Dec-19 20:28:20

For goodness sake, who do you think delivered the training? A mental health charity. This information is gained directly from people who have made attempts and wound up with psychiatric services, and fed back to services to support people with mental ill health.
You seem very desperate to prove that males and females do the same thing.
Here is the truth. Males and females are different, and men are much more likely to use more violent methods to attempt suicide such as hanging or jumping which are more likely to be successful.
Women are more likely to use less violent methods.
In this case, a male blamed a female for his suicide which of course is not her fault because no-one an force someone else to kill themselves.

WeDieAndSeeBeautyReign Tue 03-Dec-19 14:41:12

In the U.K., NZ, Australia, and Europe, everywhere with strict gun control men do not use more violent means than women

I don't think that is true. Farming is a high risk occupation for suicide and many farmers have legal access to firearms. I've never heard of a female farmer using a gun to kill herself. I personally know of 3 male farmers who did.

PlanDeRaccordement Tue 03-Dec-19 14:37:07

the statistics aren't going to demonstrate the attempts at suicide which weren't successful. Those attempts are not recorded.

If the attempts are no recorded llp, then how can you say that there are all these suicide attempts that use very different methods from completed suicides? It is most likely that people choose the same suicide methods and some complete but others do not.

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