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Blaming women for men's suicide

(90 Posts)
Gingerkittykat Sun 01-Dec-19 16:35:03

Ex blamed for causing mean's suicide.

I'm so angry at this article, and not just because I am arguing with a local MRA about it. The man was obviously in a bad place and let down badly by mental health services but lets blame the woman because that is easier.

MorrisZapp Sun 01-Dec-19 16:37:55

It's his girlfriend and family who said his problems were worsened by his ex, as heard at the inquest. I'm not sure the article 'blames a woman'.

Fraggling Sun 01-Dec-19 19:50:32

This is the headline though

'Dad, 36, killed himself ‘when ex-wife wouldn’t let him see kids for Christmas’

Most people will take that at face value, at a glance, and move on.

There has been a lot of work to try to stop the press doing this sort of thing, it's like eg

'Woman killed because she was 'seeing other men' '

The speech marks are there but most people take it at face value.

Papers should be more careful with this stuff.

In this case when you read it, he had major mental health issues and had argued with his girlfriend, it's her who says it's due to the ex though, and that is the headline.

Real story is man with serious mental health issues commits suicide but that's not so interesting from a press perspective.

I'm with you op.

Coyoacan Mon 02-Dec-19 03:44:08

Whao, that is disgusting.

Gingerkittykat Mon 02-Dec-19 03:54:18

Does the same ever happen in reverse? Is a female suicide ever blamed on a man in the same way?

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 04:00:10

Yeah headline is awful.

Being the nuclear family of a seriously depressed person is incredibly high stress. There’s a reason they broke up. Maintaining boundaries is important. Understandable GF is looking for someone besides him to blame but hopefully thorough therapy she’ll learn it was his choice and no one else’s and apologize to ex wife.

jay55 Mon 02-Dec-19 04:34:23

Terrible things for the kids to read when they look up their dad, their mum being blamed.

Kantastic Mon 02-Dec-19 05:10:36

That seems worthy of an IPSO complaint honestly, though I'm sure it's the last thing that poor woman needs at this point with the father of her children suddenly dead. It's absolutely appalling.

People are very ready to blame women for male suicide (and homicide) even when the press don't cue them up for it - you even see people blaming the girls who turned down a school shooter for the shooting spree. Or for another example, Ariana Grande came in for considerable hate and harassment when her ex was found dead of an overdose.

In this situation an actual newspaper article is uncritically reporting claims that a man killed himself because his mean ex-wife (the mean ex-wife! she's been typecast as a misogynist hate figure!) wouldn't let him see his children - on Christmas! She's being set up to be hated. She's at serious risk of targeted harassment from internet misogynists and even if she escapes that she may receive vitriol offline from people who read the article.

Can anyone complain to IPSO or do you have to be the person the article is about? Do they regulate the Metro?

coatlessinspokane Mon 02-Dec-19 05:19:33

God that’s awful. The headline couldn’t be clearer. It’s inflammatory to say the least and imagine the effect on the kids’ relationship with their mum when they google it in the future.

It’s interesting to note that his current girlfriend had had an argument with him prior to his suicide and that it was her that pointed the finger to his ex.

GiveHerHellFromUs Mon 02-Dec-19 05:35:41

Sometimes it is the case though - my friends suicide note was proof of that.

Kantastic Mon 02-Dec-19 05:47:47

Inferring your meaning, so please tell me if I've misunderstood.

Your friend's suicide note was proof that your friend wanted other people to blame a specific woman for his suicide. It was not proof that a woman was to blame for his suicide.

Antigonads Mon 02-Dec-19 05:57:52

A fb friend posted this the other day. She posts a lot about male suicide so obviously has some history but I thought this was a bit off.

traceyracer Mon 02-Dec-19 06:12:10

Men are more violent, that's why.

PermanentTemporary Mon 02-Dec-19 06:52:28

I've been blamed for my husband's suicide by his brother. It is a truly soul crushing experience.

It is very, very hard for everyone to fight through the misery that any suicide induces. The girlfriend in this story is clearly feeling intense emotions of all sorts and is perhaps lashing out. It would really be helpful if the newspaper didn't feed into that.

I dont know if these blame spirals happen more often when a man takes his own life or a woman does.

FoamingAtTheUterus Mon 02-Dec-19 06:59:05

Have some bloody decency, there's a time and a place for debate and this isn't it.

My friend was actually mutual friends with this couple and the article is accurate.

Sometimes women stop their children seeing their dads for good reason because there are some awful ones out there and sometimes we have children being used as weapons. It does happen. And complete strangers who don't know a thing about the history shouldn't be hawking this poor guy over the internet.

LongLiveThePenis Mon 02-Dec-19 07:00:13

@GiveHerHellFromUs sorry about upir friends death.
The only way for someone to kill someone else is murder or manslaughter. You cannot make another person kill themselves, particularly in this day and age when there's helplines open 24 hours per day that you can ring for support at any time.
@PermenantTemporary I'm sorry, I hope you realise that you weren't in control of what happened and aren't to blame.

GiveHerHellFromUs Mon 02-Dec-19 07:02:03

@Kantastic she stopped him from seeing his children because he didn't want to be with her.

Her dad was his boss. He worked with her brother. His work life was made hell. They'd sit there talking about how they'd done all these fun things with his children but he wasn't even allowed to talk to them on the phone.

So I think it's fair to say she was a big contributing factor. They agreed this at his inquest, too.

GiveHerHellFromUs Mon 02-Dec-19 07:03:11

@LongLiveThePenis thank you. Don't get me wrong, he was incredibly let down by health services too.

But without all the will in the world, once you've made your decision, I don't think the Samaritans can really help.

Kantastic Mon 02-Dec-19 07:14:33

And complete strangers who don't know a thing about the history

I may not have the insider-knowledge status that being a friend of a "mutual friend" of the couple implies, but that article is still extraordinarily irresponsible.

And forgive me but your gossiping-neighbour intervention only heightens the case that the article is irresponsible.

FoamingAtTheUterus Mon 02-Dec-19 07:23:03

Kantastic there was no info in my post other than to say the article is accurate and there was no speculation or gossip.

Qcng Mon 02-Dec-19 07:51:48

Don't be ridiculous.
If the mother of your children doesn't want you to see her kids, it means you should be nicer or more thoughtful and not so selfish.
You don't commit the most selfish and cruel act of all time by killing yourself to spite her and emotionally wreck your children for the rest of their lives.
By killing himself, I can see why she wanted to keep him away. He must have been a truly messed up person.

Kantastic Mon 02-Dec-19 07:53:26

My point was that you don't actually know what went on between any of these people, whatever you know is third-hand gossip via your friend, and there's a lot of room for misrepresentation and confusion there. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you, but I commend you to your own suggestion - have some bloody decency.

GiveHerHellFromUs Mon 02-Dec-19 08:07:24

@Qcng she was toxic towards him because he didn't want to be with her. People are allowed to leave a relationship.

Don't get me wrong, he had his flaws and I agree it's a selfish act, but being a mother doesn't give you the right to play god with your children's lives.

She would go a few months letting him see them, then he'd get a new girlfriend and she'd cut contact, or she'd hear a rumour and she'd cut contact.
Him 'being nicer' wouldn't have changed things.

stucknoue Mon 02-Dec-19 08:12:24

I don't know about this specific case but I know of two young men who have killed themselves after their girlfriend's dumped them, in one case I knew the girl well and it was a standard teen breakup, he just took it badly, but the other case the ex was using the kids as weapons to get at him, demanding money, refusing access, really playing games ... it happens not all women are saints. Of course ultimately it's mental health issues that should be blamed but we can't be naive, it's possible to aggravate a situation, and men are more likely to commit suicide than women, that's simply the case.

53rdWay Mon 02-Dec-19 08:41:13

My ex threatened to kill himself if I didn’t get back together with him. He had serious mental health issues and it felt like a very real threat. (He didn’t and is fortunately doing okay now from what I know.)

In his mind it absolutely was my fault that he was suicidal, because I left. He really believed it. He was, obviously, not thinking straight. He was also abusive which didn’t help. Many of his friends thought I was very, very cruel for not getting back together with him, when he was obviously struggling so hard.

I very nearly went back to him because of this. Even though he had threatened to kill me as well as himself. I am very glad for the person who told me all those years ago that it wasn’t up to me whether or not he killed himself, it was up to him.

TileFloors Mon 02-Dec-19 08:44:06

Men complete suicide more than women because they choose more violent methods. Women attempt suicide more than men.

PlanDeRaccordement Mon 02-Dec-19 08:51:48

Tile floors,
That’s not what the statistics say. The method of suicide is not much different between the sexes.

“As in previous years, the most common method of suicide in the UK for both males and females was hanging, suffocation or strangulation (all grouped together). In 2018, this accounted for 59.4% of all suicides among males (2,912 deaths) and 45.0% of all suicides among females (722 deaths; see Figure 9).

The second most common method of suicide was poisoning, accounting for 17.9% of all suicides among males (877 deaths) and 36.2% of all suicides among females (580 deaths).”
See: www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2018registrations

PlanDeRaccordement Mon 02-Dec-19 08:54:24

Here is full chart.

PlanDeRaccordement Mon 02-Dec-19 09:03:31

I don’t know if the news is being irresponsible or not. Depends upon the facts of this case. It does happen that a person drives another person to suicide. Was not a woman recently convicted of doing this by constantly texting her boyfriend and harassing him telling him to kill himself?
If the news is reporting anything other than what the inquest concluded, yes it is irresponsible. The news is often sensationalist and most people I know take what the news with skepticism and look up facts on their own.

LongLiveThePenis Mon 02-Dec-19 10:05:59

@PlanDeRaccordement, the statistics will show similar methods of suicide methods... because those are the ones which tend to work. We don't record suicide attempts because these aren't reported often.
Women attempt suicide more often but using other methods which take longer and give them more time to change their mind i.e. overdoses. Males are statistically much more likely to be successful in a suicide attempt due to the methods they tend to choose. I learned this from a suicide prevention training course.

No one should be blamed for someone else's suicide because by definition it is killing oneself. You can make someone feel very low and they can be very unwell already, but even if you put the pills in their hand, you are not the one swallowing them.

NotBadConsidering Mon 02-Dec-19 10:46:08

Sometimes it is the case though - my friends suicide note was proof of that

But if you read the article, the headline is the opinion of his girlfriend at the time - not a confirmed fact, he committed suicide in March, two and a half months after his ex presumably said no to access - the reasons for which may be perfectly valid - and he had a longstanding history of poor mental health. So in this case, the headline stands out for being misleading to the point of significant harm to his ex and their children.

I think it’s disgraceful.

sillysmiles Mon 02-Dec-19 10:55:16

*Don't be ridiculous.
If the mother of your children doesn't want you to see her kids, it means you should be nicer or more thoughtful and not so selfish.*

What BS. They are not her kids they are their kids. The mother doesn't/shouldn't have sole say in these things - its about the children not about the woman. How bitter and twisted must any woman be to use her children as weapons.

Sagradafamiliar Mon 02-Dec-19 11:06:02

There was a thread a couple of weeks ago where someone said if women were nicer to men, male suicide rates would drop. Astounding. The couple of posters who protested were called 'callous' and without empathy.

Also, not to comment on this particular article/case, but generally speaking, I SO wish men would stop being infantilised when it comes to their roles as fathers. If they are 'stopped' from 'seeing their kids', then there are things they can do. If more friends and family directed them to legal, practical advice instead of agreeing with them that women are bitter, bad mums etc, then more men might get off their backsides and Facebook accounts and take on some parenting. Or maybe not.

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 13:20:22

To the people in this thread who know the man who took his own life (or similar cases) I am sorry for your loss. I hope that you are able to attend suicide bereavement counseling.

Certainly his children should be, and there they will learn that the reason their father took his life was because he had a sickness in his mind called depression which led him to choose to take his own life. They will also learn that was his choice and no one else’s to make that choice. They will learn that the only effective means to reduce suicide completion are societal, not individual. That no matter whether you are kind or rude or accommodating or unreasonable towards a person they may still take their own life and that is solely their choice.

The alternative is that his children are taught that they in the future may be responsible for someone else taking their own life, or that they might think they could have stopped his suicide. Which would be an abomination. This article is deeply irresponsible to the mental health of these children.

Coyoacan Mon 02-Dec-19 13:38:55

Being a parent is not about you, it is about the child/ren. I used to fantasise about killing myself but as soon as I became a mother that was no longer an option. We have to teach our children resilience and that is not the way to go about it.

I'll not condemn the man because I presume it was a temporary madness, but the children are the victims here.

StrangeLookingParasite Mon 02-Dec-19 14:56:13

If the mother of your children doesn't want you to see her kids, it means you should be nicer or more thoughtful and not so selfish.

This is just an appalling thing to say, as if no woman was ever an utter bitch, as if all men were always responsible.

P1nkHeartLovesCake Mon 02-Dec-19 15:11:22

If the mother of your children doesn't want you to see her kids, it means you should be nicer or more thoughtful and not so selfish

Because no woman has ever been a spiteful bitch? All women are lovely little flowers and would never not allow a father access to spite him would she? Also they aren’t HER children, they are their children.

In terms of what the OP posted about, of course the headline shouldn’t of been used but that’s what papers do isn’t it man kills himself is hardly an interesting headline.

He was obviously suffering with mental health in order to take his own life and it is sad. Being denied access to his dc probably didn’t help but lack of mental health services won’t of helped either.

It’s sad anyone gets to stage they think killing them self is the only option they have

SpamChaudFroid Mon 02-Dec-19 15:13:37

I remember that thread sagrada.

My husband took his own life and I was blamed. Nobody said so (except my own mother, but that's another story) but you can feel it when people start avoiding you. You know everybody's thinking "So what did she do to drive him to it". Headlines like the one in OP perpetuate this way of thinking.

SpamChaudFroid Mon 02-Dec-19 15:18:10

utter bitch

spiteful bitch

On a thread about a woman who has lost her husband to suicide on a feminist board. JFC.

Coyoacan Mon 02-Dec-19 15:23:42

SpamChaudFroid flowers

Maybe people were avoiding you because they didn't know what to say.

Apart from the awful hurt to the accused ex and their children, that headline encourages the idea that people can use suicide as a means of getting back at someone, which runs the risk of copycat suicides. That is against all media guidelines

sillysmiles Mon 02-Dec-19 15:25:42

@SpamChaudFroid
Ah no, the pp who said that were talking about a/any woman who refuses to allow the children's father access to children for their own personal/spiteful reasons.

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 15:40:13

woman who refuses to allow the children's father access to children

I’m afraid that ultimately if he wants to see his kids it is his responsibility to use the law to force the issue. Just as it would be on the other direction.

But none of this justifies the implication of the pp here that the article was “accurate” to imply the suicide was caused by the ex wife behavior 3 months earlier.

This implication will harm his children and prevent all his loved ones from accepting the difficult reality - that it was his decision and due to his depression, whatever he may have said in his suicide note written at the nadir of his mental health. Not to mention harm to others who will feel responsible for their loved ones mental health when they in reality cannot be.

Sagradafamiliar Mon 02-Dec-19 15:57:51

SpamChaudFroid, I really am sorry to read that thanks

PlanDeRaccordement Mon 02-Dec-19 16:06:54

Longlivepenis.
My post was in response to tilefloors saying that “men use more violent methods than women”

Not the women attempt more often than men statement. How did you confuse the two when everything I posted was about method not the number of attempts?

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 16:17:47

Plan,

But your data did not include the methods used for all suicide attempts, only the methods that led to suicide completions.

The former is most relevant to the point that a major reason men complete suicide more than women is because they attempt suicide using more deadly methods.

Gingerkittykat Mon 02-Dec-19 16:23:00

My ex told me he would kill himself and he would make sure everyone knew it was all my fault, he never acted on it though since it was just a manipulative ploy on his part.

No person is ever responsible for another person's suicide.

PlanDeRaccordement Mon 02-Dec-19 16:23:34

llp
No one should be blamed for someone else's suicide because by definition it is killing oneself. You can make someone feel very low and they can be very unwell already, but even if you put the pills in their hand, you are not the one swallowing them.

I disagree and so does the justice system. Women (not just men) are bullied into suicide all the time. A 12yr old girl in Florida jumped off a roof after being told to kill herself by 15 other girls at her school. It’s not about blaming innocent people who have inadvertently hurt a fragile persons feelings. There are evil bullies and torturers that do in fact deliberately drive people to insanity and suicide over periods of months to years.

PlanDeRaccordement Mon 02-Dec-19 16:26:38

FWRlurker-
Ok, do you have any sources on these attempts and the wildly different methods that were used compared to completed suicides?
I don’t think attempt methods are much different from what is being tracked as your example of overdose as an attempt method is the second most common method of completed suicide under poisoning.

PlanDeRaccordement Mon 02-Dec-19 16:34:16

Op- yes some people with personality disorders threaten suicide to manipulate their victims but their existence doesn’t mean that people actually pushed into suicide do not exist.

No one should be automatically blamed for a suicide. It’s why investigations should be done to establish the facts and circumstances.

LongLiveThePenis Mon 02-Dec-19 16:48:00

@PlanDeRaccordement, men do use more violet methods than women. Apologies if I didnt get that across to you in my post. Again, learned at suicide prevention training.
Could you link the case of the 15 year old please? I'd like to read that and see how the people who were bullying that girl were dealt with. I imagine the type of bullying was illegal so could have been dealt with under harassment legislation but I doubt they were convicted of suicide or manslaughter.
I'm so sorry that this seems to be a sticking point for you but you cannot force someone to commit suicide. That is murder.
@Gingerkittykat, that is so shit, I hope he's stopped making those threats now. It is awful to make someone else worry like that.

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 16:53:56

I’m from the US so most research I’m aware of focuses on the sex differences in the use of guns. Guns are used for suicide much more by men than women and have a 90% completion rate. Compare this to a common mode among women, poisoning which has a 4% completion rate. Across all methods Men have an overall completion rate of about 50% while women have an overall completion rate of about 33%.

I wasn’t the pp who brought this up by the way.

www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/wonkblog/suicide-rates/

PlanDeRaccordement Mon 02-Dec-19 16:55:36

Llp

Suicide prevention training? How long ago was that? And in which country? The more violent means only applies to the USA where men shoot themselves far more often than women do. In the U.K., NZ, Australia, and Europe, everywhere with strict gun control men do not use more violent means than women. The ONS statistics are very clear about the U.K. and suicide.

Maybe we agree more than it looks like. Many deaths that on the surface look like a suicide are murders or manslaughter. Which is why even if the person took the pills, ended up in front of a train or suffocated we still need to investigate the facts and circumstances to determine was the death really a suicide or something else?

PlanDeRaccordement Mon 02-Dec-19 16:58:32

FWR- we cross posted. Yes the USA is not the world norm for methods.

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 17:04:44

Ok to your follow up. Disregarding guns the cdc study I pointed to shows that men also use suffocation and jumping from a high place more than women (these methods are also much more likely to result in death). I would suspect that men without access to guns would instead use other means so again more likely to complete suicide than women due to the means used not number of attempts.

I would imagine that the UK I hope has similar figures for attempt type vs completion type? But not sure where to look.

LongLiveThePenis Mon 02-Dec-19 17:11:24

The training was in the UK.
Just to explain again, the statistics aren't going to demonstrate the attempts at suicide which weren't successful. Those attempts are not recorded.

MorrisZapp Mon 02-Dec-19 17:21:08

Should all suicides be signed off then, with no background looked at? There was a case in Scotland in which a young woman took her own life after sustained harassment from her ex partner, her family absolutely did hold him accountable.

Surely there must be a process available to look at the background of cases like this?

Sagradafamiliar Mon 02-Dec-19 17:34:41

I disagree and so does the justice system.

The UK criminal justice system?

Coyoacan Mon 02-Dec-19 17:40:35

However sustained harrassment or bullying, especially in a situation where the victim cannot get away, is significantly different from someone committing suicide because their wife didn't allow them access to the children or because their partner left them.

SpamChaudFroid Mon 02-Dec-19 18:27:40

I was thinking more about this and remembered something I learned at SOBS while trying to come to terms with my husbands death. The law used to be so that suicide was illegal. Even worse, the surviving spouse was held responsible for their "crime" and could be (and sometimes were) tried in a court of law for it.

So clearly society wants to blame somebody, and society tends to judge women the most harshly. So it's what we're conditioned to do - blame and judge. That's the reason I dislike seeing word bitch used to describe women - it's an insult that's reserved for women.

Thank you Coyocan and sagrada for the flowers smile

StrangeLookingParasite Mon 02-Dec-19 18:31:55

On a thread about a woman who has lost her husband to suicide on a feminist board. JFC.

No, really do completely decontextualise my comment, which was a response to someone else's comments painting all women as perfect angels and all men at fault. Neither of these positions is true, neither sex has a lock on being in the wrong. This was my point.

Inebriati Mon 02-Dec-19 19:34:06

Is a female suicide ever blamed on a man in the same way?

Refuge state there are 30 suicide attempts as a result of DV every day in the UK, and 3 women succeed each week
www.refuge.org.uk/our-work/campaigns/more-refuge-campaigns/taking-lives/

But there has only been one attempt at prosecution as far as I can tell.
Gurjit Dhaliwal took her own life after enduring years of physical and psychological abuse, her husband walked free.
www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/16/ukcrime.claredyer

Refuge tried to study the problem of suicide and domestic violence but;
''We had planned to interview professionals from other sectors, including the CPS, police and health but were unsuccessful
in recruiting any participants in the required timescales, despite making repeated efforts over a period of months.''
www.refuge.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/domestic-abuse-suicide-refuge-warwick-july2018.pdf

NotBadConsidering Mon 02-Dec-19 20:08:39

It doesn’t matter what the stats are, what matters is how this headline was chosen and framed based on the information available in the article. What do we know from the article?

• he committed suicide in March after a long-standing history of mental health problems
• his ex refused access in December, for reasons we don’t know
• his girlfriend testified it was her opinion that this was a trigger

That’s all.

Regardless of stats about male vs female suicide, and regardless of blame being attributed to a surviving partner, this is about how journalists, editors and sub-editors choose to report on such matters. The inherent misogyny here is in the editorial decision to go with that headline with scare quotes despite there being no basis for such. Someone made an editorial decision that such a headline would be more clickable. So it’s not about actual blame, it’s about how the press see the attribution of blame as fair game.

Whatisthisfuckery Mon 02-Dec-19 22:42:29

Suicide rarely has one cause. The trigger is rarely the cause.

PlanDeRaccordement Tue 03-Dec-19 14:21:42

Wikipedia also has a list of people bullied into suicide
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides_that_have_been_attributed_to_bullying

The only one that lists a conviction were five youths convicted for the 1997 suicide of Kelly Yeomans.

A lot of the deaths show that governments started to change laws to allow prosecution of harassers/bullies that push teens and young adults to suicide.

So I think this is a new area where before no one was prosecuted to now here there are laws such that people can be prosecuted.

PlanDeRaccordement Tue 03-Dec-19 14:33:15

On The conversation there is an article about this subject. It starts with this case in Australia
“Jennifer Morant, 56, died of carbon monoxide poisoning in her car in November 2014. Last month, a jury found her husband, Graham Morant, 69, guilty of two crimes under section 311 of Queensland’s Criminal Code Act 1889: counselling her to commit suicide, and aiding her to do so. He had repeatedly encouraged Jennifer to commit suicide (counselling), and had even driven her to a hardware store to purchase the equipment she used to kill herself (aiding).”
theconversation.com/encouraging-suicide-or-committing-manslaughter-106324

PlanDeRaccordement Tue 03-Dec-19 14:37:07

the statistics aren't going to demonstrate the attempts at suicide which weren't successful. Those attempts are not recorded.

If the attempts are no recorded llp, then how can you say that there are all these suicide attempts that use very different methods from completed suicides? It is most likely that people choose the same suicide methods and some complete but others do not.

WeDieAndSeeBeautyReign Tue 03-Dec-19 14:41:12

In the U.K., NZ, Australia, and Europe, everywhere with strict gun control men do not use more violent means than women

I don't think that is true. Farming is a high risk occupation for suicide and many farmers have legal access to firearms. I've never heard of a female farmer using a gun to kill herself. I personally know of 3 male farmers who did.

LongLiveThePenis Tue 03-Dec-19 20:28:20

For goodness sake, who do you think delivered the training? A mental health charity. This information is gained directly from people who have made attempts and wound up with psychiatric services, and fed back to services to support people with mental ill health.
You seem very desperate to prove that males and females do the same thing.
Here is the truth. Males and females are different, and men are much more likely to use more violent methods to attempt suicide such as hanging or jumping which are more likely to be successful.
Women are more likely to use less violent methods.
In this case, a male blamed a female for his suicide which of course is not her fault because no-one an force someone else to kill themselves.

NotBadConsidering Tue 03-Dec-19 20:33:06

I’ll say it again: this thread is about whether the press should present blame in a headline when the details of the case don’t specify that to be true.

I don’t know why people are trying to argue about attributing blame in suicide. The issue here is this publication has already done so without basis.

Why have they done this? Why is it acceptable?

PlanDeRaccordement Tue 03-Dec-19 20:59:16

You can all believe it’s not true that men and women use the same methods in the same order of frequency but you are not arguing with me and an opinion of a random Frenchwomen on the internet but the actual facts of real life suicides in the U.K. as reported by the U.K.’s ONS

Mumsnet, where UK wide tracked and reported facts by ONS can be dismissed with repeated “but men chose more violent methods this charity said so in some suicide thing I went to ages ago” and another person chiming in “But, I know 3 farmers who have shot themselves,....”

Yet the same ONS that reports on facts of majority male violence is counted to be 100% true.

You can’t pick and choose facts. You can’t use personal anecdotes to replace facts. They simply are. I’m not desperate, I’m astonished at the lack of a fact based discussion.

PlanDeRaccordement Tue 03-Dec-19 21:02:19

Notbad..
I agreed a few pages back that thebpress should in an ideal world not report anything other than what an inquest or investigation has released. Sadly, the press reports things sensationally all the time about everything. Lives and reputations have been ruined by the press. There isn’t really anything that can be done about it.

XXMansplainShieldActive Tue 03-Dec-19 21:53:08

So awful, if he died of cancer or a stroke would that be the fault of a woman in his life too?

People who take their own lives do exactly that. Nobody else takes their lives for them.

"Look what you made me do" cannot be applied and "look what you made him do" is just another version of that.

There is some research published this week showing the structural changes in people's brains that lead them to take their own lives. The sooner poor mental health is treated as the illness it is the better.

www.news-medical.net/news/20191202/Researchers-identify-brain-networks-that-play-key-role-in-suicide-risk.aspx

NotBadConsidering Tue 03-Dec-19 22:41:26

There isn’t really anything that can be done about it.

Yes there bloody well is. You can focus on this issue rather than be distracted and talk about another issue and complain to the editor and/or IPSO like I’ve done.

This thread is about how women are portrayed in the media, whether that be about a man’s suicide, a man who kills his partner/family, the personal lives of female victims etc etc. It can be changed with direct action. It won’t be changed by arguing with someone about something off topic.

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 05:35:58

This thread is about how women are portrayed in the media, whether that be about a man’s suicide, a man who kills his partner/family, the personal lives of female victims etc etc.

Yes. That was original topic and it is being discussed and I have posted on it. But then people started posting opinions contrary to fact and so there was a need to post a few U.K. facts.

To get back to the original topic would be nice, I agree. I don’t think your complaint to the editor will accomplish anything. They generate income by clicks and you have no consumer power in the case of free online news. So they will continue to word titles as click bait because that is how they fund their salaries.

It’s also not a women’s issue as the press does this constantly towards all people.

NotBadConsidering Wed 04-Dec-19 06:36:55

I don’t think your complaint to the editor will accomplish anything

And that’s why I complained to IPSO. There are press standards.

The portrayal of women in death in the media resulted in IPSO publishing guidelines:

act.welevelup.org/campaigns/54

after people complained enough. So it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that it enough people complain about this sort of reporting then it will change too.

Fraggling Wed 04-Dec-19 08:36:12

Yes there are press standards which women's groups have got changed over the years in various ways.

Eg when women who were prostitutes were murdered, when I was young, that was how they were described. Not woman murdered, not a name, but prostitute murdered.

That has changed after work by women's groups, to get these women humanised, treated with more respect.

The idea that these things can't be changed is a gross lie and I wonder why anyone would come onto a feminism board and tell women not to bother trying to make things better.

Coyoacan Wed 04-Dec-19 14:22:10

As I say, I think this breaks the rules about how the media cover suicide to avoid copycat suicides

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 15:41:38

Fraggling,
It’s not a “gross lie” to be realistic about how little power and influence a consumer of a free product has.
In addition, if the way the media handled this one case was against journalistic standards, then it is up to the woman or her family to file a suit for defamation or misuse of private information against the media outlet(s).
But even being sued for damages hasn’t stopped the media from being sensationalist. They see paying off the odd settlement as a cost of doing business.
No one is immune. Even Prince Harry and Meghan Markle have a law suit against several news outlets for negative coverage with racial undertones.

XXMansplainShieldActive Wed 04-Dec-19 15:45:45

Be defeatist all you want but lay off other women trying to make a difference. Maybe even thank them?

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 15:46:35

Oh, and Fraggling
Your story about women not being called prostitutes in the press anymore is a nice one. But today the U.K. daily mail has this headline for an article:
“Mother of prostitute, 23, who killed her toddler daughters brands her a 'monster' and reveals she knew she'd murder them as 'they got in the way of her escort work' before selling their dresses and pyjamas on FACEBOOK”

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 15:58:45

XX- I see it is a crime to be a realist which is not defeatist by the way. Must we all be an optimistic Don Quixote here?
Strange, on any other feminist thread it is acceptable to recognise the reality of the lack of women’s power within a patriarchal system, but apparently not on this thread.

FWRLurker Wed 04-Dec-19 16:14:13

Plan you’re In essence telling women they shouldn’t be mad about blatant misogyny in the press and should just let it go and stop making such a fuss.

No.

PlanDeRaccordement Wed 04-Dec-19 16:23:55

No I’m not. I’m disagreeing with those who say you can never hold a person responsible for another person’s suicide. The misogyny is in holding this belief that a person can never ever drive another person to kill them self because if that were true, then you’d have to release Nicolas Allen from his ten year prison sentence:

He was jailed in 2017 for 10 years for the manslaughter of his ex-girlfriend after she killed herself as a "direct result" of his controlling behaviour. Nicholas Allen was jailed after what is thought to be the first UK manslaughter case brought in such circumstances. Allen, 47, sent Justene Reece abusive voicemails, texts and Facebook messages and stalked her, the trial heard. Ms Reece, who was 46, hanged herself in February and left a note saying "I've run out of fight." A consultant psychiatrist who reviewed all the evidence and medical records said she had been in a "substantially abnormal" mental state, suffering from depression, panic attacks and feelings of hopelessness.

We all know more men abuse and control women than the other way around. By trying to protect the few abusive women, we let down the many many more women who are victims of abusive men. 3 die every week. THAT is misogyny in my opinion.

allmywhat Wed 04-Dec-19 16:43:48

NotBad

Thanks for the inspiration. I have complained to IPSO too.
www.ipso.co.uk/complain/complaints-form/

I complained on the grounds of Accuracy - that headline is clearly not supported by the facts.

I also complained on the grounds of Reporting Suicide - I'm less sure about that one, it seems limited to not describing weapons used. But the aim of that clause is to prevent further suicides inspired by the article. If coercive controllers who weaponise suicide against their victims see that article, it will affirm to them that their tactics are likely to work and that their ex will be blamed if they commit suicide.

My first IPSO complaint and I don't know how they usually think so perhaps it will be dismissed out of hand. But I hope others will complain too. That reporting is horrific.

Fraggling Wed 04-Dec-19 16:47:00

'In addition, if the way the media handled this one case was against journalistic standards, then it is up to the woman or her family to file a suit for defamation or misuse of private information against the media outlet(s).'

None of your business
Keep your nose out
Nothing you can do
Don't bother

On fwr of all places.

Women, accept the world, don't bother trying to change it for the better for women (or anyone else? Or just women?).

No thanks.

FWRLurker Wed 04-Dec-19 19:44:06

we let down the many many more women who are victims of abusive men. 3 die every week. THAT is misogyny in my opinion.

Many women stay because their abusive partners threaten suicide. It’s incredibly common. In my opinion The type of article like the one in the OP that blames women for what men choose to do is part of what leads to this. “Oh I Can’t leave him or I’ll be blamed for his suicide / his ex or family will think it’s my fault”.

There’s a reason that the kind of case you’re talking about is rare and should remain rare. I would personally prefer that abuser were charged with Every single count of physical abuse / battery / torture he’s guilty of. Should be hundreds or dozens of events and ought to be enough to lock him up for decades without the manslaughter charge.

Sadly we usually charge men with 1 count of domestic battery for years of torture. Let’s change that first.

PlanDeRaccordement Thu 05-Dec-19 09:11:00

FWR-
I may be vindictive but while I 100% agree with you that abusive men should be charged with multiple counts of battery, assault, rape, all the torture they did, I still think that if they drove a woman to suicide they should also be charged with manslaughter as well. A life has not only been ruined but taken. There should be justice.

Fortunately, charging people who drive others to suicide with manslaughter has already changed. It is already set in legal precedent.

I think charging for multiple counts also has some legal precedent but would need to be expanded to dv cases. That’s a change I support completely.

PlanDeRaccordement Thu 05-Dec-19 09:26:36

Fraggling, I do not know why you insist on mischaracterising my words.
It’s the same process with any crime or civil wrong. The victim has to report and file charges. Members of the public complaining about news articles don’t have much impact.

I did not say any of those things you listed from none of your businesses to the last word of your post- you are choosing to mischaracterise my comments.

My stating facts on what works to change things for women (file a legal action) compared to what does not work to change things (Email a whiny complaint). What is more helpful on a feminist page? Saying what works or defending blindly what does not work? Which helps women more?

Fraggling Thu 05-Dec-19 15:56:17

'Members of the public complaining about news articles don’t have much impact.'

In your opinion.

Fraggling Thu 05-Dec-19 16:01:45

Putting the onus on individual members of the public, who may be vulnerable / not will off enough to do so, is a rubbish idea.

The law is there for people who can use it. But society or groups within society can and do effect change for the better.

This is 'no such thing as society' and everyone for themselves to the max. Like I said before. No thanks.

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