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"Schools told all lessons for five-year-olds should include gay and trans themes"

(123 Posts)
Igneococcus Sun 01-Dec-19 07:43:53

"Voluntary" guidance from Stonewall:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/schools-told-all-lessons-for-five-year-olds-should-include-gay-and-trans-themes-2tqblg8hh?shareToken=3ef5f878c2cff99ee913ca279929e248

mcduffy Sun 01-Dec-19 07:46:46

Just came on to post this. There's such a big difference IMO between same-sex couples (no big deal to explain this to my pre-school age kids) and wanting to change sex (being sold an impossible idea).

Igneococcus Sun 01-Dec-19 07:51:23

Yes, I have no issue with children being taught about same sex relationships but trans is a very different issue.

Igneococcus Sun 01-Dec-19 07:53:38

Also just seen thhis:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/childrens-author-pens-antidote-to-books-peddling-wrong-body-myth-k8t2z2w35?shareToken=5538f34f9550e85dc306b82c52353f0a

mcduffy Sun 01-Dec-19 07:59:02

Excellent coverage by the Times today smile

shiveringtimber Sun 01-Dec-19 08:00:50

Five year olds do not need to learn about sexuality.

littlecabbage Sun 01-Dec-19 08:00:53

Tanya Carter, from the Safe Schools Alliance, a group of concerned parents, grandparents, teachers and others, said: “We are in favour of teaching about same-sex families, but we are concerned that the aim of challenging homophobia is being used to sneak gender ideology into the curriculum. It is being taught as fact that children can be born in the wrong body and are able to change sex, neither of which is true.”

This paragraph from the article sums up my opinion on this. Same-sex families - yes, please teach my children about this (although I wouldn't be comfortable about advocating surrogacy for male same-sex couples. Adoption - fine.). Trans ideology - do not teach my children confusing, sexist, homophobic, dangerous nonsense.

littlecabbage Sun 01-Dec-19 08:02:27

Five year olds do not need to learn about sexuality

Not the er... physical "ins and outs", no, but to learn about same-sex couples being in a loving relationship - yes.

SimonJT Sun 01-Dec-19 08:06:08

@shiveringtimber So should all five year olds have single parents then? Otherwise how would you stop them finding out about heterosexuality?

Siameasy Sun 01-Dec-19 08:09:56

My DD (5) already knows about periods and what male and female mean, that you can’t change sex but can wear what you want etc

When she asks about reproduction I will tell her in an age appropriate way (factual not stork)

We need to lose the squeamishness about sex-the people pushing gender theory are counting on your child being a blank canvas.

Meganc559 Sun 01-Dec-19 08:12:38

I don't think 5 year old need to hear about trans
Kids at that age are like sponges and they may get confused by what they re being told

velocitygirl7 Sun 01-Dec-19 08:15:33

I work with 3/4 year olds and they absolutely need to start to learn about sexuality.
I have had a fair few children with same sex parents and we always touch on this when we talk about families.

myduckiscooked Sun 01-Dec-19 08:20:13

Siam I completely agree. My friends, some of whom are medically trained, were talking about the dreaded “talk” a while back. It cannot be a dreaded subject matter. It is just facts, nothing more.

GCAcademic Sun 01-Dec-19 08:23:41

In religious education lessons, pupils should be taught about naming ceremonies for people who change gender, according to the guidance, which has been sponsored by the publisher Pearson and the Government Equalities Office (GEO) from a £1m grant awarded to LGBT organisations.

This sounds good to me. Teach gender ideology as a being a religion that some people believe. That is what it is, after all.

That’s what they mean, right?

RedToothBrush Sun 01-Dec-19 08:30:10

No.

Just no.

I have already had issues with my son getting upset because his best mate said he was a girl because he has long hair. My son is very resilient on this and was adament he is a boy because he has a willy. I still had to reassure him it was OK to have long hair if he liked it that way and lots of famous men had long hair. And we've had conversations over pink being 'for girls' too. I had to point out his daddy likes wearing pink but he's definitely a boy (his dad does like pink).

DS is frequently a dinosaur.

He's a clever boy but he simply lacks the capacity to understand this stuff at age 5. I've already taken a conscious decision to distance myself from my family because it was causing me distress and him confusion at home. Its a subject we will have to broach at some point but I do not understand why this might be taken out of my control and before he has the maturity to deal with the subject properly.

This isn't a game. This is the reality of some peoples lives and its a deeply complex and adult issue.

5 year old need to understand both sex and gender and difference between them to properly understand the concept of being trans and they need to understand the issue of stereotypes and how not everyone conforms to stereotypes in order to be able to know the difference between being non conforming and trans.

Otherwise you are just going to erode boundaries which protect kids on the basis of sex and you are going to confuse the hell out of them.

This is so wrong. It smacks of adults putting their own needs and political agendas ahead of the cognitive and emotional development of children and their understanding of the whole. That is a massive safeguarding risk of its own right there.

Siameasy Sun 01-Dec-19 08:30:24

myduck same, I have friends with pre-teens where the kids must be starting puberty but they’ve told them nothing because “ew”.
A lot of people cringe over telling their kids the real names of genitals and indeed talking about them at all.

minminminnie Sun 01-Dec-19 08:51:26

the transphobia on this website is abhorrent

RedToothBrush Sun 01-Dec-19 09:05:20

Stonewall definition of homosexuality is homophobic. Sex is not gender.

These are important concepts to understand.

Transphobia can't exist if sex is erased and replaced by gender as it can not be recorded or defined.

So in order to teach children that transphobia is wrong they have to properly understand sex and gender and they have to understand non conformity is legitimate in every area of life. Trans ideology is instead pushing gender stereotypes and conformity not freedom to be who you want because of its militancy. And at the same time is legitimising and promoting institutionalised homophobia.

But yeah its Mumsnet that's wrong for pointing out the painfully ill thought out and contradictory bullshit that activists want to shove down 5 year olds throats in the form of incoherent nonsensical word salad.

OneEpisode Sun 01-Dec-19 09:07:21

Minnie You should click on anything hateful and report it to the mods who will delete.

Milanimilani Sun 01-Dec-19 09:12:32

Its adding extra work and confusion into parenting. We are all going to have children coming home and having to get over the dissonance of school teaching the truth apart from about changing sex. I can see it further eroding trust in ‘experts’.

OneEpisode Sun 01-Dec-19 09:12:44

Or, Minnie do you think boys who play with dolls sometimes should be put on GNHRa meds ASAP so they never have any sexual function, so there is no risk of a Med-free happily gay person in your family?

shiveringtimber Sun 01-Dec-19 09:13:46

Five is too young. As of 6-7 only. And no stereotyping, obviously. It's perfectly fine to have two daddies or two mummies or a mummy and a daddy or one parent.

WendyMoiraAngelaDarling Sun 01-Dec-19 09:15:41

the transphobia on this website is abhorrent

There is no transphobia on this thread or are you talking about a different thread? Do report it wherever you see it though won't you.

Hepsibar Sun 01-Dec-19 09:23:40

Can we not allow children's early school days to be about learning to learn, being kind, playing, maths, languages, science, art, PE, being kind to people and accepting that people can be different? And obviously all the specifics with children with special needs, safeguarding, health and safety, sports and so on.

Pityparty4one Sun 01-Dec-19 09:26:10

I think children aged 5 do need to learn about relationships but not sexuality the two are very different.

Teach children that relationships look many different ways but the importance is that the relationships are happy and healthy for all concerned.
Why is there this need to have children validate an adults sexuality?
It's creepy and stinks of indoctrination.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown Sun 01-Dec-19 09:28:40

I'm quite happy to have children learning that same sex relationships exist and are normal (and having both L&G family members mine already knows that)but absolutely object to five year olds being taught that what makes you a boy or girl is the sexual stereotype you most align to.

Babdoc Sun 01-Dec-19 09:29:58

It smacks to me of indoctrination worthy of the Jesuits: “Give me the child til he is seven, and I will give you the man”.
This ideology is so dangerous and potentially damaging to gay or autistic children, who will be pushed onto a trans pathway, sterilised and surgically mutilated, instead of being supported to be themselves.

HorseWithNoFucksToGive Sun 01-Dec-19 09:31:36

I agree with telling children that being gay is perfectly fine but like others here would object to children being told that a person can change sex which is impossible.

HandsOffMyRights Sun 01-Dec-19 09:38:12

Once again, why is a lobby group issuing 'guidance' to schools, when this contravenes the Education Act?

Also, I'd be looking to this. Belief in 'gender' is just that, a belief system and I choose not to subscribe to magical thinking.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/28/atheist-parents-take-primary-school-court-say-assembly-prayers/

minminminnie Sun 01-Dec-19 09:43:38

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HandsOffMyRights Sun 01-Dec-19 09:45:24

I've seen some real bitter and hateful old women on here in previous threads about trans issues and it's disturbing.

And there we have it.
Long live the penis round two.

minminminnie Sun 01-Dec-19 09:46:06

Teaching about trans issues is not telling all children that what makes them a boy or a girl is whether they play with dolls or not.

It just means that if they come across someone like this is their lives it's not to be judged or hated upon...

PHOBIA means fear, it's removing the fear and stigma around trans people existing and allowing them to live relatively safely and without judgement.

minminminnie Sun 01-Dec-19 09:47:14

@HandsOffMyRights I'm a 22 year old woman.

HandsOffMyRights Sun 01-Dec-19 09:47:47

And?

fascinated Sun 01-Dec-19 09:48:46

Re the Jesuits - indeed. And yet the Catholic Church actually has issued quite a balanced and thoughtful statement on this issue. Which is good. Am keeping it ready to use with my child’s RC school, and the body in charge of RC education higher up, in case I hear about any of this creeping into the DC’s school.

minminminnie Sun 01-Dec-19 09:48:48

@HandsOffMyRights And so what's your point?

HandsOffMyRights Sun 01-Dec-19 09:49:23

My point is you say you're a 22 year old woman. So what?

OneEpisode Sun 01-Dec-19 09:49:37

minmin this is a UK site so religion is a protected aspect of society. So you can believe that your god placed people’s souls in their earthly bodies, and for some reason placed some souls in the body of the wrong sex. But I don’t need to believe that.
In the UK age and sex and also protected. So “hateful old women” hits two protected characteristics in one..

minminminnie Sun 01-Dec-19 09:50:37

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

fascinated Sun 01-Dec-19 09:50:45

@min... no. Phobia means an unreasonable or exaggerated fear. Not a rational assessment of risk.

HandsOffMyRights Sun 01-Dec-19 09:51:12

How so?

Pityparty4one Sun 01-Dec-19 09:52:16

what happens when they kill themselves because they're not allowed to be who they feel they are meant to be?

Please be very careful saying this sort of stuff. We know the suicide rate of trans people is no higher than any other group in fact I think it is lower than most.
When this sentence is thrown about it becomes a form of control/threat.

I've seen some real bitter and hateful old women on here in previous threads about trans issues and it's disturbing.

Very mysogonistic of you there.
Transphobia is bad but being mysogonistic is ok in your view?
You have just pissed all over any chance of anyone reading your posts with an open mind. Well done.

fascinated Sun 01-Dec-19 09:54:59

What is the policy - are we to just ignore such posters? I see people trying to engage but it just seems always to derail good discussion....

TeaAndStrumpets Sun 01-Dec-19 09:54:59

Lots of young women on here, amazingly! And they know a dick when they read one grin

OneEpisode Sun 01-Dec-19 09:55:14

no regular poster on this site knows my age and no one knows my gender identity on account of that being personal, unknowable & etc. My sex someone could probably work out from other posts..
So why would a randommer assume a poster was an “old woman”? Unless they believe someone old enough to be a parent, and care about children, is “old”?

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Sun 01-Dec-19 09:56:16

Lying to five year olds is really not on.

The differernce between gay and trans is huge. Homosexual people do exist. They do have same sex relationships. They are a reality that children need to know about at some point.

Trans ideology by contrast is complete and utter nonsense on stilts. Human beings can't change sex at all. There is no evidence whatsoever that 'gender identities' exist outside of faith based beliefs.

Children do not need to be lied to about trans. They need the truth. You are the sex you are and nothing will ever change that. It doesn't matter what your likes and dislikes are. It doesn't matter how you dress. Your sex always stays the same. Throughout your life and even your death.

Those children who are distressed by this reality need support to come to terms with it, not false promises. Other children need to be free from ideologists who seek to undermine their development.

I give thanks daily that my children are grown and I didn't have to protect them from schools foisting this dangerous claptrap on them.

birdsdestiny Sun 01-Dec-19 09:57:29

Is there something wrong with being old minmin? That's not very tolerant of you is it. Are you a bigot?

Birdsfoottrefoil Sun 01-Dec-19 10:00:18

* you can, nowadays, change sex to varying degrees*

Sex is denoted by your body’s reproductive role. It is impossible for males to produce large immobile games or gestate babies, and it is impossible for females to produce spermatozoa, and it is impossible to change the dna in every single cell of your body that dictates which of the reproductive roles your body is designed to carry out. ALL you can do cosmetic surgery and take drugs to make your body artificially mimic some of the features of the opposite sex. Body modification this way comes no closer to changing sex that a few piercings and tanning pills do.

WendyMoiraAngelaDarling Sun 01-Dec-19 10:01:35

@minminminnie I've reported your nasty post. Hopefully it will be removed soon. All these claims of nastiness and bitterness and you're the only one making personal attacks 🤷‍♀️

minminminnie Sun 01-Dec-19 10:05:38

oof

fascinated Sun 01-Dec-19 10:06:20

”ALL you can do cosmetic surgery and take drugs to make your body artificially mimic some of the features of the opposite sex. “

>> Exactly! Seems it’s not just fake news people have trouble recognising these days... I despair. Reality is REAL, folks!

HorseWithNoFucksToGive Sun 01-Dec-19 10:17:12

I've seen some real bitter and hateful old women on here in previous threads about trans issues and it's disturbing.

Minnie, just to be sure who you're talking about could you please define the word "woman" without using the word woman in the definition?

Thank you.

OldCrone Sun 01-Dec-19 10:17:23

You can be born in the wrong body

You are entitled to hold this religious belief minmin, but you cannot force others to believe that we have a gendered soul which can be born in the wrong body.

KatvonHostileExtremist Sun 01-Dec-19 10:17:53

I think we should push rigid sex stereotypes to small children. That way as soon as they display any gender non conformity we can get them on a medical pathway for the rest of their life. You hateful bigots. Yes I know that means throwing 80% of those kids, who would end up being happy as their own sex, under a bus. But hey! Hateful old bigots! Are you actually literally nazis? Ooooooof!

Pityparty4one Sun 01-Dec-19 10:19:16

Body modification this way comes no closer to changing sex that a few piercings and tanning pills do.

I believe there are people that have taken tanning pills to such a degree they appear black...does that make them black and in turn allow them to appropriate black culture and black oppression minmin?

EverardDigby Sun 01-Dec-19 10:20:38

they're not allowed to be who they feel they are meant to be?

Lots of us believe that gender non-conforming children should be who they feel they should be without telling them they can change sex. I was one of those children, I wish someone had told me it was fine to like stereotypically boys things and still be a girl and be great as I was.

KatvonHostileExtremist Sun 01-Dec-19 10:23:02

I have ordered 4 copies of this book and I will take one into my kids school and talk to the head.
Gender non conforming kids are not automatically trans, and the over simplified way it's shown as such in those stonewall resources is dangerous. And some seriously sexist shit.

KatvonHostileExtremist Sun 01-Dec-19 10:23:42

www.transgendertrend.com/product/my-body-is-me/

Sorry, so cross I forgot the link!

SarahTancredi Sun 01-Dec-19 10:26:16

My kids already know men can marry men and women can marry women and they already know everyone should be able to wear and do what they like and be free to do so without being laughed at or bullied.

But kids should not be taught about this wrong body nonsense. Theres a reason they r picking schools for that and not old peoples homes.

They are all perfect just how they are. And i wont tolerate being my kids being told " call the he/she or they will.kill themselnes"

Or manipulated into not being allowed any boundaries under the guise of "inclusion"

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 10:36:57

I teach a much older age group and the confusion on this issue is frightening. I have started to get assertions like 'men can have babies, miss' and other such nonsense because of the rubbish that is being put out there by various media outlets and organisations.
How are these kids supposed to square that with what they learn in biology - facts vs fairytales?
5 year olds do not need to be told lies about being born in the wrong body and changing sex.
I am all for teaching them about same sex parents but this homophobic and damaging ideology must be left at the door.

stillathing Sun 01-Dec-19 10:40:18

It just means that if they come across someone like this is their lives it's not to be judged or hated upon

Except none of the material seems to be about doing this? It seems instead to be about recruiting children to a particular belief system.

My child is atheist but friends with a lot of Muslim children and a few Christian children - reflective of the local population. His school is excellent at preventing bullying and promoting community cohesion.

With so many competing beliefs existing under one roof, it doesn't achieve that cohesion by converting all the children to one of the belief systems. You can teach children kindness and tolerance of difference/different beliefs, along with the fact some families have 2 mummies / 2 daddies. It should not be the role of a school to teach the children to believe in a specific religion, gendered souls or gender stereotypes.

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 10:41:32

I've seen some real bitter and hateful old women on here in previous threads about trans issues and it's disturbing

Yes those old bitches standing up against the homophobia and racism of the trans loons. How fucking dare they? Long live the penis!

BlackForestCake Sun 01-Dec-19 10:49:09

* the transphobia on this website is abhorrent*

Stonewall's insistence on pushing anti-scientific, misogynistic, homophobic stereotypes on children too young to defend themselves is abhorrent.

Sparkyduchess Sun 01-Dec-19 10:59:35

My friends grandson came home from reception recently very worried that he was really a girl, thanks to a conversation had earlier in the day.

His teacher had clumsily touched on gender and gender roles leading to much confusion.

Absolutely we need to ensure that littlies know that two mummies, or two daddies, or one parent only is fine, families come in a variety of shapes.

Putting the idea in kids heads that their body may be ‘wrong’ - categorically NOT.

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 11:00:49

Teachers who are not standing up to this really annoy me. It is a hill I will die on and lose my job should I have to.

LangCleg Sun 01-Dec-19 11:02:23

I'm so fucking glad my kids are of an age that we missed all this.

Interrupting child development to destabilise in aid of an ultra-libertarian, hyper-capitalist, sexist, racist and homophobic adult political movement masquerading as a neo-religion. It's an outrage. We don't live in a genderist theocracy.

(Also: what Red said on page one.)

OldCrone Sun 01-Dec-19 11:12:36

Teachers who are not standing up to this really annoy me.

In your experience, what proportion of teachers are supporting this ideology? I recently discussed this with 3 other women (2 of them ex-teachers). The only one who was supportive of the way trans is being pushed in schools was the one who had the most recent experience of working in a classroom. The other two had only recently come across the phenomenon of children deciding they're the opposite sex and thought the whole idea was insane.

fascinated Sun 01-Dec-19 11:15:22

Yeah, koshkat. An older ex-teacher in our family was sceptical that this could ever be an issue in schools, because as he saw it surely no teacher would ever agree to teach it? He just couldn’t believe that it could ever take hold. Surely they could complain to their union, he said? He’d have resigned over it, he said (he would have, too, but honestly I think in his day it couldn’t have come to that...)

fascinated Sun 01-Dec-19 11:16:44

Perhaps working on the teaching unions might be a fruitful avenue?

Justhadathought Sun 01-Dec-19 11:17:36

@shiveringtimber So should all five year olds have single parents then? Otherwise how would you stop them finding out about heterosexuality?

This is where the conflation of LGB and the T has brought us......it was always going to be retrograde for the LGB. Trans ( in its contemporary form) is not a sexuality or sexual orientation - it is an ideology enforced onto vulnerable young people, as well as a convenient refuge for older people with certain fantasies and fetishes gone rogue.

iguanadonna Sun 01-Dec-19 11:17:41

Great for 5 year olds to hear that some families have two mums or two dads. And any child who's ready to draw the inference that this may be relevant for their own life as an adult can do so. But all this needs to be presented as about the adult world.

Justhadathought Sun 01-Dec-19 11:20:21

Young children don't need to know about sexuality. What they need to know is that love and liking are good things that can make you feel happy; and that you can love and like all sorts of people. That's enough for a five year old. That is where they are at.

Justhadathought Sun 01-Dec-19 11:24:30

I work with 3/4 year olds and they absolutely need to start to learn about sexuality.I have had a fair few children with same sex parents and we always touch on this when we talk about families

And I have a four year old grandduaghter, and used to be a teacher myself.....All that such young children need to know is about loving and liking. Not about sex or sexuality, per se.....that is an 'adult' concept.

Michelleoftheresistance Sun 01-Dec-19 11:24:52

ultra-libertarian, hyper-capitalist, sexist, racist and homophobic adult political movement

This. Under a veneer of 'but we're teaching about some people being gender non conforming and gay and having same sex parents!' so it looks like no decent person would question it. Like the rainbow laces campaign which looks like it's about supporting openly gay sports people, but is actually about the destruction of women's sport. And the mention yesterday about 'women's rights not being affected by religion and culture', which is actually about setting the ground to exclude women who won't undress around males and have a very inconvenient protection in law. Do they seriously think people won't get wise to this positive herd of Trojan horses cantering around?

Plus: anyone remember in New Labour's era when they stuffed the curriculum so full of Right On messages global warming to programme the next generation that the kids were doing it constantly in multiple lessons? And because of this, the kids got completely fed up, brassed off with it and bored with the whole subject, and groaned the second it was mentioned?

Michelleoftheresistance Sun 01-Dec-19 11:26:07

ultra-libertarian, hyper-capitalist, sexist, racist and homophobic adult political movement

Ooh and anti consent. Forgot that bit.

Justhadathought Sun 01-Dec-19 11:27:33

*Why is there this need to have children validate an adults sexuality?
It's creepy and stinks of indoctrination*

Absolutely! This is my feeling too. This is horribly insidious and boundary eroding.

alittleprivacy Sun 01-Dec-19 11:43:15

I've always told my DS about trans-people if when it was appropriate. For example when he was a preschooler he wanted to grow a baby in his tummy when he grew up and feed it 'milkies' from his breasts. So whenever he'd say something like that I'd explain that he would be a man when he grew up, so he couldn't grow a baby or breastfeed because only women could do that. He'd ask if he had to grow up to be a man and I'd tell him that he would naturally grow to be a man. That sometimes people born as boys really want to be women and they can take medications and have surgeries as they get older to make them appear and feel more like women but that they could still not have babies or breastfeed. He was pretty upset until I told him that when he grew up he could try and find a woman who would want to have a baby with him and he could be the daddy.

It's an easy enough concept to drop into conversation if it arises while also being honest about the limitations of the procedure. We've also had lots of conversations over the years about the differences between boys and girls. He knows that at his age there are very little differences between boys and girls and that most of the differences; hair length, clothing style and colours, toy "preferences," etc, are created by society and he can feel free to ignore them and dress how he wants, play with what he wants, rock out to Equestria Girls if he wants. That as he gets older the biological differences will increase, and he won't always be able to play mixed sex team sports for example, but a lot of differences are still made up by society. And that he should stay aware of that and learn the difference between the biological limits and strengths of being male/female and the social ones.

He probably doesn't understand everything I say but he's free to question me more if he wants to or just take in what he can and move on to what ever pops into his head next. But I try to have a parenting policy of nothing being taboo, always being honest (about everything but Santa, elves and the massive range of other magical creatures that pop in and out of our lives!) and encouraging discussion and explorative thinking.

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 11:55:26

OldCrone that is a tricky one but I definitely think that the younger the teacher, the more likely they are to be on the woke train and to enthusiastically support this. Older teachers I think are more likely to see through it but will keep quiet because no one wants to be seen a 'bigot' right? Plus, get on the wrong side of an aggressively woke management and you are out.

I think that the whole thing is pushed much more in the state sector than the independent sector although it is creeping in there too.
The whole profession needs to look closely at what is being promoted and engage brains - but the shutting down of questioning or debate (biogot again) is very, very effective. Teachers are generally people who want to be fair and kind and sadly this is getting us in to a horrible mess.

I have been banned from the TES forum merely for questoning a few things re transing children and was also jumped on by some very aggressive 'no debate' teachers.

I am very worried for our children.

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 11:56:10

bigot sorry

BlackForestCake Sun 01-Dec-19 12:11:10

Perhaps working on the teaching unions might be a fruitful avenue?

Kiri Tunks is President of the NEU. I imagine people there are doing what they can.

Justhadathought Sun 01-Dec-19 12:13:25

I'm certainly glad I'm no longer teaching. Even 10 years ago 'trans' just wasn't a thing at all in schools. I couldn't 'do it' with any feeling of integrity, which is kind of why I left teaching anyway.

Justhadathought Sun 01-Dec-19 12:16:51

I think that the whole thing is pushed much more in the state sector than the independent sector although it is creeping in there too

Yes, my granddaughter attends an independent catholic primary school. My daughter had a meeting with the Head on this issue - and gave her a copy of the Transgender Trend School pack. They certainly don't have a developed policy around trans issues yet, and I can never see them pushing for one. Hopefully!

FusionChefGeoff Sun 01-Dec-19 12:22:48

@koshkat
*
Thank you
*
thanks

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 12:28:14

The term transgender, or more commonly now trans, is an umbrella term used to describe a person whose gender identity is not the same as the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans also includes non-binary people who do not fall into the binary categories of man/woman or male/female. Non-binary people may feel they are not exclusively male or female, and may embody elements of both.
This is from the NEU's website. Note the 'assigned at birth' crap being trotted out.

This is their guidance on transchildren and loos/changing rooms:

Ask the young person what would make them most comfortable. If what they want is realistic and possible, then go with it

They actively promote Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence, the Trans Inclusion school toolkit made by Brighton and Hove council, they link to the Genderbread Person and Wipe Out Transphobia.

I complained about this but but was told that there was no place for transophobia in teaching. I left the union.

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 12:29:15

transphobia apologies for typo

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 12:31:22

neu.org.uk/advice/supporting-trans-and-gender-questioning-students#creating-a-trans-inclusive-schoolcollege-why-wait

For anyone who is interested

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 12:32:22

The young person should not in any case be told that they must use the changing rooms that correspond with the gender they were assigned at birth

It is grim reading.

OldCrone Sun 01-Dec-19 12:40:55

I definitely think that the younger the teacher, the more likely they are to be on the woke train and to enthusiastically support this.

That's why I was so surprised when the retired teacher (60-ish) who I was talking to seemed to have been so taken in by it.

rodgmum Sun 01-Dec-19 14:41:58

I’ve posted on a couple of threads (regular here but changed my NN for this topic) about my DD(14j who has been actively encouraged down this path by her Year Head (also head of the LGBT club at school). Teaching trans ideology at any age at school can dangerous for some pupils, particularly autistic girls who can view it as a way to fit in and are particularly gullible to the “born in the wrong body” mantra. Our DD doesn’t want anyone “talking science” to her now and it is incredibly difficult to discuss it with her.

This teacher is in his 30s and is completely on board with the Stonewall message that once a child shows signs they might be gender confused, they must be treated at trans. He tried sending me to the Mermaids website and was not happy at all when I refused.

The other issue with schools is that Mermaids etc tell them that they should keep everything confidential and not tell the parents unless the child agrees. This meant that the entire school was referring to DD as “he/him” etc without our knowledge- very hard to pull back from that.

The whole thing in schools is such a mess.

skql Sun 01-Dec-19 15:13:47

i think it's tome to let kids alone.
sex gender lgbtq2@#!$... just stop.

kids are kids.

BickerinBrattle Sun 01-Dec-19 15:15:41

the guidance, which has been sponsored by the publisher Pearson and the Government Equalities Office (GEO) from a £1m grant awarded to LGBT organisations.

I’m interested in this grant money. The syntax on the sentence is odd: did the publisher and/or the GEO award the grant money? Or are they sponsoring, ie creating and disseminating, the guidance thanks to grant money given from elsewhere?

If from the publisher, who sits on the board of the publishing company?

It strikes me that one million pounds to teach five year olds about transitioning is a LOT of money for a very small subject.

Whatsnewpussyhat Sun 01-Dec-19 17:26:26

you can, nowadays, change sex to varying degrees

This is the bullshit we need keeping out of schools. No one can change sex. Ever.
You can change your appearance. Nothing else.

koshkat Sun 01-Dec-19 18:26:57

Indeed.

LondonKate Sun 01-Dec-19 22:12:00

My daughter has just started reception. We are a lesbian family and I am so pleased with the idea that she might see families like hers at school - I think it is important for everyone to see their family reflected back at them. I also think it would be better if schools were discouraging gender stereotypes rather than suggesting changing gender.

BroomstickOfLove Sun 01-Dec-19 22:53:20

It's not either/or. My son knows that two women can get married, like his grannies. He knows that when his parents first met their friend Kate, everyone thought she was a boy but that felt so wrong to her that she asked everyone to treat her like a girl and took medicine to help change her body. He knows that when people think he's a girl because he has long hair, and then try to sell him sparkly shoes that don't keep his feet dry, that that's silly because boys can have long hair if they want to, and girls can wear sturdy shoes.

birdsdestiny Sun 01-Dec-19 22:56:18

What does treat like a girl mean broomstick?

Creepster Mon 02-Dec-19 00:00:09

A lobbyist organization is dictating school curriculum and threatening to put the law on any who do not "volunteer" to teach the belief that children who do not comply with sex role stereotypes are born in the wrong body and need to be corrected with drugs and surgery.

Any who do give in to Stonewall's threats and teach their beliefs will be in violation of the EA. (1)Religion means any religion and a reference to religion includes a reference to a lack of religion.

(2)Belief means any religious or philosophical belief and a reference to belief includes a reference to a lack of belief.

(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of religion or belief—

(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a person of a particular religion or belief;

(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons who are of the same religion or belief.

Goosefoot Mon 02-Dec-19 01:11:02

And the mention yesterday about 'women's rights not being affected by religion and culture', which is actually about setting the ground to exclude women who won't undress around males and have a very inconvenient protection in law. Do they seriously think people won't get wise to this positive herd of Trojan horses cantering around?

This raises the question though of whether the desire is another ideology or for schools to avoid ideology and leave that to families. Because there are two ways this can go, I think.

One is arguing against gender ideology because we want some other ideology to win and be taught in the schools. When people say they want schools to teach kids that any sexuality is just fine, that's an ideological approach, and not one everyone will agree with.

The other option is for schools to avoid ideology, and while they might still teach about being kind and getting along with other kids and families, it would involve refraining from making any statements about what the right way to think about sexuality might be.

In the former approach there will be winners and losers, there will be people sending their kids to school who feel they are being indoctrinated, that they are stepping on the parental role. And there's a sense where, if we agree that's ok, sometimes we might have to put up with being the losers, if we can't convince people.
But the latter approach, we've really moved away from it in the last, maybe 20 years, though in a quieter way. We've taken it for granted that schools should be teaching about this stuff with the express idea that we want to influence what those kids grow up to believe. I think it might be difficult for many people to move away from that way of doing things.

FWRLurker Mon 02-Dec-19 01:23:10

i wish someone had told me it was fine to like stereotypically boys things and still be a girl and be great as I was.

And my parents DID tell me that and for which I am immensely grateful despite disagreeing with them on many other issues (they’re politically conservative I’m a Leftie).

Ive been thinking lately about why this stuff bothers me so much. I think it is because it is telling children they need to lie in front of other people for those other peoples comfort. It’s a gross violation of the person. It’s sort of like requiring your child to hug that weird aunt/uncle they last saw 4 years ago because otherwise would be impolite. Just don’t.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 02-Dec-19 02:03:46

Just out of interest, minmin, how does one tell that a woman is old based on words written on a forum (that don't include mention of her age)? Do you always assume people who disagree with you are old (and bitter), or just women? At what age does one become too old for one's opinion to matter?

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