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I hope you never have children- Labour and self id

(99 Posts)
woollysocksaresexy Sat 30-Nov-19 15:39:16

Labour have just knocked on my door campaigning. After listening to their much rehearsed answers on Brexit (I am very pro remain) I asked them about their policy on self ID. She didn't know what self ID was. Then, when I explained it further, she said "I hope you never have children" and walked off. I am extremely upset. I am about as far from a judgy rightwinger as its possible to get. I just happen to have concerns about women's rights as well as trans rights. Why cant I ask a campaigner about this without being insulted? I am just terribly upset that she appears to be judging me like this. For what it's worth, I have a brilliant woman labour MP, who I voted for last time. This time? Not after this.

TiredofthisBS Sat 30-Nov-19 15:39:50

Complain to the local CLP.

KatvonHostileExtremist Sat 30-Nov-19 15:43:04

Complain to your mp!

EverardDigby Sat 30-Nov-19 16:00:46

That is terrible that they knock on your door wanting something from you and then they're abusive! Yes write to the MP about why you won't be voting for them this time.

AnyOldPrion Sat 30-Nov-19 16:04:03

That’s appalling. If she didn’t agree, she could have said so in a polite manner.

I agree you should contact the candidate (unless she WAS the candidate) and complain. If she was representing me I’d be very angry.

TinMansBrain Sat 30-Nov-19 16:12:18

Good thing I'm not voting Labour! Or Tory for that matter.

I think I might vote for the local independent candidate.

Michelleoftheresistance Sat 30-Nov-19 16:15:15

Its becoming so normal for people to talk to someone whose politics they don't agree with in this awful, abusive way, and to say such extreme things on the mildest of provocation.

Absolutely inexcusable to someone representing a public facing organisation, I really hope you feel able to report it. This isn't ok, parties shouldn't be accepting of this kind of behaviour.

zanahoria Sat 30-Nov-19 16:19:18

well just remember, they came round to your house asking for a favour. It is their loss.

Singlenotsingle Sat 30-Nov-19 16:19:22

How to lose votes, eh?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 16:19:26

Modern leftism is making labour completely unelectable.

PhoenixBuchanan Sat 30-Nov-19 16:23:04

Wow. How old was the woman who came canvassing?

Floisme Sat 30-Nov-19 16:24:30

I wonder whether Labour have lost a lot of their most experienced canvassers, because they seem to have replaced them with a load of people who have no idea what the role entails.

ScrimshawTheSecond Sat 30-Nov-19 16:25:15

Appalling.

Nobody should be making personal attacks like this on anyone.

Michelle's quite right, this is somehow becoming acceptable, especially on the left (I am on the left, and so are virtually all my family and friends. I've grown increasingly uncomfortable with the level of vitriol and approbation that is becoming normalised.)

dreichXmas Sat 30-Nov-19 16:43:23

Also they are being ridiculous, it is because I have dc that I am concerned.
I would like my dd to have a level playing field in sports and safe spaces to manage her periods.
I would like both of my dc to understand that everyone should be treated with respect but it is not biologically possible to change sex.

BarbaraStrozzi Sat 30-Nov-19 16:44:36

Makes an interesting companion thread to the one started by the Momentum politico.

This. This is why you've pissed off your core voter base so badly that lifelong Labour voters, even former party members, won't vote for you any more.

"Raving Antisemite? No problem sir, come right in. Worried about women's rights? Piss off you evil harridan."

Well done all of you. You're in the process of gifting the election to the worst Tory PM in living memory. Really, really well done. Slow fucking handclap for the beardy dude bros and handmaidens over on the left.

GCAcademic Sat 30-Nov-19 16:45:12

So much for their manifesto promise on this, then, eh? Such a surprise that it’s just empty and deceptive words . .

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Sat 30-Nov-19 16:50:25

Shameful. I'd have given her an earful if that had been me.

Michelleoftheresistance Sat 30-Nov-19 16:52:25

Slow fucking handclap for the beardy dude bros and handmaidens over on the left.

This sad

I live in forlorn hope that eventually all the sane and emotionally competent people who have walked away from the nutjobs form a new Left socialist party with a grip on reality and an ability for grown up politics. Voters will flock to them.

Post edited by MNHQ

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sat 30-Nov-19 16:54:56

Please complain to your MP. No canvassers should get away with being abusive.

SonicVersusGynaephobia Sat 30-Nov-19 17:08:24

Definitely complain. Your MP needs to know that this is how her canvassers are behaving!

DeeZastris Sat 30-Nov-19 17:34:04

Don’t vote for her. It’s that simple.

Forgotthebins Sat 30-Nov-19 17:50:12

What an appalling thing for the canvasser to say to you in your own doorway - please complain.

TeaAndStrumpets Sat 30-Nov-19 17:58:08

I am going to be keeping my broomstick near the doorway, just in casegrin

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sat 30-Nov-19 18:00:15

Labour's ability to lose votes that should have been in the bag will never cease to amaze me.

ScrimshawTheSecond Sat 30-Nov-19 18:16:06

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory does seem to be a thing.

Lumene Sat 30-Nov-19 18:18:28

shock

Pretty shite canvassing skills there.

Saz432 Sat 30-Nov-19 18:19:39

Don’t vote for her. It’s that simple.

She wouldn’t be voting for the canvasser though would she?

OP states that she has an excellent female Labour MP, but she won’t vote for her because a canvasser was an arsehole. That’s the very definition of cutting your nose off to spite your face - good MPs are few and far between.

OhHolyJesus Sat 30-Nov-19 18:25:51

Absolutely appalling OP, complain. It's incredibly personal and completely out of order. If she is not equipped to deal with difficult questions she should not be canvassing.

(I realise local party volunteers have no training and do it on their own time and £ but it's way out of line.)

The Labour candidate should be informed.

BarbaraStrozzi Sat 30-Nov-19 18:28:18

Except that realistically you are voting for a party - who presumably would be your choice to form a government - as well as your MO. Last time round I did vote for my Labour MP - one of the few remaining moderates, and an excellent constituency MP. This time, no way. Because women like this canvasser have more than a whiff of Mai's red guards about them, and there's no way I'm letting a party who tolerates, nay positively encourages, them anywhere near power.

packingsoapandwater Sat 30-Nov-19 18:28:20

There are specific guidelines covering behaviour while canvassing. I think your canvasser may have broken electoral law.

stealthsquirrelnutkin Sat 30-Nov-19 18:32:07

I wonder whether Labour have lost a lot of their most experienced canvassers, because they seem to have replaced them with a load of people who have no idea what the role entails.

I wouldn't be at all surprised. A lot of us resigned our membership after being forced to accept that our Party really was willing to sacrifice women's hard won sex based rights, and child safeguarding in favour of an aggressive man's sexual right's movement. I expect a lot of those women will be sorely missed now, when there is real work needing to be done.

Remember Madigan's gloating post concerning the booze-up Madigan intended holding, in celebration of having driven hundreds of loyal Labour women out of the party they'd supported for decades?

What's the betting that our replacements, the new, improved kind of women, and their fans, just aren't as hard working, as patient, or as competent as the old fashioned, cunty type of woman that they hounded out with such vicious glee?

Perhaps stuffing envelopes, and walking round in the rain having doors slammed in your face isn't very nice? Perhaps it's the kind of dreary thankless task (like scrubbing the bog) that is naturally more suited to the temperaments of dull, cunty women?

Perhaps, after haemorrhaging all those adult human females, the CLP was forced to make do with any rude, ignorant prat willing to volunteer on the day?

SurvivingCBeebies Sat 30-Nov-19 18:36:26

I hope that those happy to throw away single sex spaces don't have children... as they bloody well obviously don't know how to safeguard them..!!

morningtoncrescent62 Sat 30-Nov-19 18:37:37

I agree with others saying you should inform the candidate and your local constituency Labour party. Quite a lot of canvassers in my CLP are students who've never campaigned before - we do our best to show them the ropes, and pair them up with experienced people the first few times, and whoever's in charge of the group tries to keep an eye and ear out for anything untoward, but it's very difficult to do any real quality control. Bottom line, canvassers are supposed to be courteous at all times, no matter what is thrown at them (even if something's thrown at them!). If a canvasser is rude you should definitely complain. Last week someone put an angry comment on a local forum about a canvasser from my local CLP - the comment from the canvasser wasn't anywhere near as rude as the one in the OP, but the candidate was round there herself the next day to explain and apologise. As you have a good ex-MP-now-candidate, I'm sure she'd want the opportunity to try to put things right.

I've been out canvassing a lot these past few weeks. I'm dying for someone to ask me about women's rights on the doorstep, but it hasn't happened yet. We have to say what issues people want to talk about and they get collated. Tempted to lie. grin

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind Sat 30-Nov-19 18:39:56

Labour need to get a grip on this utter shite, and quickly.

They have abandoned so many of their core voters in favour of these people. Why?!

theflushedzebra Sat 30-Nov-19 18:42:25

I could weep for what's happened to the Labour Party. And the libdems.

Actually insulting and abusing the electorate seems to be considered ok now. Telling women not to vote for them. I never would have believed it.

Floisme Sat 30-Nov-19 18:48:49

Back in my day, the main purpose of canvassing was to identify where your support lived and, having done so, to move on quickly.
Trying to keep you on the doorstep by initiating a long conversation was an old opposition tactic. We were instructed not to engage and instead to suggest that the candidate would get in touch with them personally to discuss the issue.
As for being abusive - your feet wouldn't have touched the floor.

PinkyU Sat 30-Nov-19 18:50:49

I suppose it really depends on what you said.

“Self id is where a Male or female can decide apropos of nothing which gender they align with. This poses a small but dangerous risk as sexual predators may use this to access vulnerable people”.

Or

“Men pretending to be women”, “trans people = danger”, “TWANW”.

The first opens up to interesting and informative conversation. The second makes you look like a right wing bigoted lunatic, which a lot of people don’t have tolerance for.

No, you don’t have to be nice and kind but understand that your views are radical and not widely held so introducing a novice to them gradually usually illicits a more favourable response.

Michelleoftheresistance Sat 30-Nov-19 18:54:33

Believing in biology and that people can't change sex and that women need single sex spaces really isn't radical! confused

Your comment suggests it's perfectly appropriate for someone to say something that rude and extreme in a public facing job if their political view is unacceptable enough to you.

It isn't.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 18:56:28

understand that your views are radical and not widely held

That's not true is it.

Michelleoftheresistance Sat 30-Nov-19 19:00:47

Well thank you for your time
I think we'll have to agree to disagree
Well that's certainly a point of view
I must get going, lots of people to see
I'll be sure to pass your views on

All examples of how grown ups deal with people they don't agree with when they're working or volunteering in a public facing role.

PinkyU Sat 30-Nov-19 19:01:31

As I said it would entirely depend on how the op phrased her stance, they’ve not said so therefore can’t really comment on wether the canvassers statement was disproportionately rude and/or extreme.

I’ve seen some pretty horrendous views shared on here that has had me thinking “I really hope they don’t say xxx in front of their dc”.

Also I think that it is radical for women to gather in numbers to voice concerns on matters such as this, TW have been around since humanity began and woman have never responded like this. I’m not saying that that is a bad thing, but I think it certainly ticks the box for being radical, in the truest sense of the word.

PinkyU Sat 30-Nov-19 19:02:41

I think it depends on what chamber you reside in Captainkirk.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind Sat 30-Nov-19 19:04:42

“Men pretending to be women”, “trans people = danger”, “TWANW”.

What, you think that someone saying 'transwomen are not women' warrants being told that they shouldn't have children, by someone who is trying to persuade them to vote for their party? 😂

It's not just the trans issue either. The left have become so tribal, if you don't completely agree with absolutely everything that fucking Momentum declare as gospel, then you can sod off. Fuck them.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 19:05:00

I think it depends on what chamber you reside in Captainkirk.

You mean the 90% of the people who are against self I'd vs the 10%?

theflushedzebra Sat 30-Nov-19 19:06:09

The second makes you look like a right wing bigoted lunatic, which a lot of people don’t have tolerance for.

Sorry, but you included "transwomen are not women" in the "right wing bigot" pile. I think you made a mistake - it is neither right wing, nor bigoted, to be sure that transwomen are not actually women. They are transwomen - no human can change their biological sex. Women are assigned observed female at birth.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind Sat 30-Nov-19 19:06:41

Also I think that it is radical for women to gather in numbers to voice concerns on matters such as this, TW have been around since humanity began and woman have never responded like this

Why do you think that is? Why do you think that women, many of whom are traditionally left leaning and Liberal, are coming together to defend their rights?

koshkat Sat 30-Nov-19 19:08:15

Pinky you need to get out there and canvas for the LP by the sounds of it.

The second makes you look like a right wing bigoted lunatic, which a lot of people don’t have tolerance for

It is NOT a 'radical belief' to know that only men have penises now is it? It is a fucking fact.

Michelleoftheresistance Sat 30-Nov-19 19:08:34

I'd think that was disproportionately rude and extreme even if the person who answered the door had raised two fingers and shouted an obscenity.

Which, if you're going to work as a canvasser, or teacher, or nurse, or copper, or pretty much any other job involving Joe Public, you're going to encounter sooner or later. If you're there to do a job and represent an organisation, you don't splurge your personal political views. Basic standards of appropriate behaviour.

NOT excusable because you (and clearly the canvasser) think is a taboo subject.

PinkyU Sat 30-Nov-19 19:08:38

See that’s the issue with polls, they only tell you the view of the people who respond, the people who respond are generally those with strong views either way.

Not necessarily an accurate reflection of society as a whole.

I could present a poll showing exactly the opposite solely because of the type of people I may ask.

Floisme Sat 30-Nov-19 19:09:29

Please tell me you don't work with the public.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 19:09:30

See that’s the issue with polls, they only tell you the view of the people who respond, the people who respond are generally those with strong views either way.

This was from a pink news poll....

Michelleoftheresistance Sat 30-Nov-19 19:10:11

I think it depends on what chamber you reside in Captainkirk

Ah.

Well thank you for your time and have a lovely evening.

koshkat Sat 30-Nov-19 19:10:20

Pinky do YOU think that women can have penises?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 19:10:55

www.heraldscotland.com/news/16328719.poll-finds-people-oppose-self-declared-gender-by-3-to-1/

Even PINK FUCKING NEWS COULD GET ENOUGH SUPPORT!!!

HowToBeAWoman Sat 30-Nov-19 19:11:14

So we’ve had a Lib Dem representative telling a woman the party isn’t for her because she is gender critical, and now we have a Labour canvasser behaving like this? Anyone had any run-ins with a Tory so I can call bingo?

Fucking disgraceful. Complain, complain, complain, OP!

PinkyU Sat 30-Nov-19 19:12:19

Due to safety fears and concerns over the potential nefarious usage of self id, that’s fairly obvious I’d say?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 19:13:20

Would you say Pink News readers would be the wrong people to Poll PinkyU?

I can tell you where the view is wildly held, 100% of that little 18% support self ID.

GCAcademic Sat 30-Nov-19 19:13:35

I think it depends on what chamber you reside in Captainkirk

The chamber I reside in is a university, and I can promise you that not even there does anything like a majority of people think that a woman can have a penis.

koshkat Sat 30-Nov-19 19:14:39

Anyone had any run-ins with a Tory so I can call bingo?

Quite the opposite tbf. I think the Tories are in reverse because they know it is a vote loser.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 19:15:35

Even the most Pro Self ID poll can only get 50% Pinkyu why is that do you think?

It's a wildly held view afterall?

gamerchick Sat 30-Nov-19 19:16:09

radical

That genuinely made me laugh. Bravo! who would have thought things had got to that point of thinking.

Radical indeed grin

I agree OP, send an email to the actual person and complain about the person on your doorstep.

BarbaraStrozzi Sat 30-Nov-19 19:23:04

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3756969-I-hope-you-never-have-children-Labour-and-self-id

This is an interesting read, if OP wants to get some insight into why it is that women are finding it so hard to vote Labour.

ThePurported Sat 30-Nov-19 19:24:23

Women talking amongst themselves about current policy proposals is a bit too radical for you Pinky?
Dear lord, that's hilarious!

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 19:26:01

I think Pinky is currently googling looking for poll results that widely support self ID.

BarbaraStrozzi Sat 30-Nov-19 19:30:06

Duh, I'm an idiot, meant to put that on the "you must vote Labour" thread. Will do so now.

koshkat Sat 30-Nov-19 19:41:43

S/he may be gone a while in that case...

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sat 30-Nov-19 19:58:37

'As I said it would entirely depend on how the op phrased her stance, they’ve not said so therefore can’t really comment on wether the canvassers statement was disproportionately rude and/or extreme.'

No it wouldn't. Labour are trying to win an election here. It doesn't matter what they said or how they phrased it, the aim of canvassing is not to win points or call out bigots, it's to try and get more people to vote for the party and not alienate the ones who are already going to.
Getting your party in means winning the votes of people who don't agree with you about loads of things, some of which you consider fundamental issues. But you don't want to lie and you have integrity, so you move on politely when you get onto a difficult area.
You want to call people out, go on the Internet. You want to help your party win, don't lose votes for them.
Do Labour's new canvassers not realise that? Does Pinky not realise it? Jesus wept.

PinkyU Sat 30-Nov-19 20:25:26

Pinky is currently sat on the bed of her disabled dd who is crying in pain, whilst I attempt to distract her, and distract myself with this site. That ok with you captainkirk?

Not everybody has the time and privilege to devote all their time to being an areshole online.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 20:30:02

Not everybody has the time and privilege to devote all their time to being an areshole online.

It's a bloody good job i said nothing arsehole worthy then isn't it.

Would you like me to tell you what I'm doing, no, okay then no point in derailing??

theflushedzebra Sat 30-Nov-19 20:31:49

You're doing all right on that score, Pinky - calling women right wing bigot lunatics online hardly covers you in glory.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 20:34:38

Even the most Pro Self ID poll can only get 50% Pinkyu why is that do you think?

This is still unanswered if you need distraction?

PinkyU Sat 30-Nov-19 20:37:38

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

koshkat Sat 30-Nov-19 20:39:12

confused

GCAcademic Sat 30-Nov-19 20:39:18

Well, I can certainly see why some people prefer to #nodebate

Just not up to it.

theflushedzebra Sat 30-Nov-19 20:40:52

Yup. That is about the level of debate we're used to from trans rights advocates grin

KatvonHostileExtremist Sat 30-Nov-19 20:42:06

Are they ever up to it?

theflushedzebra Sat 30-Nov-19 20:43:05

The pattern normally goes - Mild namecalling -> Appeal to sympathy -> Full on abusive.

GiloulovesLaure Sat 30-Nov-19 21:35:51

Never mind rudeness, that was an appallingly crass response from the canvasser. For all they know , they could have been talking to a woman who is desperate for a child but cannot conceive, or who has lost a child or who does not see her child/children for any number of reasons.

LunchBoxPolice Sat 30-Nov-19 21:39:45

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

koshkat Sat 30-Nov-19 21:47:50

What a weird post LBP. Is that all you came on the thread to say?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 21:53:47

I missed what PinkyU said, was it to me?

theflushedzebra Sat 30-Nov-19 21:57:36

It was an "F off" Captain - either to you or me, (or both of us!) I'd say.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 30-Nov-19 21:58:59

Ah okay.
Thanks theflushedzebra

IWantADifferentName Sat 30-Nov-19 22:45:47

WoolySocks - please, please, please let both your MP and your local party know about the canvasser and why you won’t be voting for them. Your MP deserves to know, particularly if she is an otherwise good MP as they are doing a disservice to her by representing her in that way. The local party should now because the canvasser should not have acted that way and is prevented from doing so electoral canvassing rules.

Milanimilani Sun 01-Dec-19 07:58:06

Thats so shocking [to return to the purpose of the thread]. Who goes around saying things like this while canvassing? Its bad enough coming across nutters on the bus without canvassers knocking on your door

“Hi there please vote labour”
“What about self-id?”
“Get away from me demon spawn independent-thinking hag!”
shock

wrongsideofhistorymyarse Sun 01-Dec-19 09:02:33

That's shocking. Please complain.

AlwaysTawnyOwl Sun 01-Dec-19 22:14:56

Certainly complain. Canvassers cannot knock on your door, randomly insult you, and then walk off.

Aaarrgghhh Mon 02-Dec-19 01:38:07

I think regardless of what you said and for the record, I agree with you. Her response was rude and uncalled for. Much better ways to handle that and she chose poorly.

Beamur Mon 02-Dec-19 10:54:50

Seems to be a theme.
Ocado, Always, Aviva, M&S, John Lewis, Labour party...
Women ask about changes to policies, etc. that disadvantage them and get told to piss off.

Fishcakey Mon 02-Dec-19 21:55:29

I wouldn't know what Self ID was if it hit me in the face!

OldCrone Mon 02-Dec-19 22:18:58

I wouldn't know what Self ID was if it hit me in the face!

I don't know if you're serious about that, but assuming you are, this is what it means.

It means that you can choose whether to be legally recognised as male or female, and have a new birth certificate stating your chosen sex. This is irrespective of what sex you actually are. So if you're female, you could choose to be legally recognised as male, and vice versa.

Sounds insane? You may be surprised to hear that some countries already do this. Ireland and Malta for example.

Fishcakey Mon 02-Dec-19 22:20:40

@OldCrone I was serious. I'm not very enlightened. Does it make me awful that my first reaction on reading that was what the actual ..... ?????

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Mon 02-Dec-19 22:23:23

Basically right now getting a GRC (Gender recognition certificate) requires a person to either have a diagnoses of Gender Dysphoria or to have had surgery, Self ID replaces this with just filling in a form.

Fishcakey Mon 02-Dec-19 22:24:29

It's awful! The most terrible people could use it for such wrong reasons! I never knew this was even a possibility.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Mon 02-Dec-19 22:25:40

The gate keeping is there for a reason:

www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/6B5F217162ABD9B3189F2EB82787034E/S1758320900012695a.pdf/gender_reassignment_5_years_of_referrals_in_oxfordshire.pdf

This study shows that it works, here out of 39 people 2 were rejected for a GRC for being peadophiles...

Self ID removes this.

LangCleg Mon 02-Dec-19 22:28:38

It's awful! The most terrible people could use it for such wrong reasons! I never knew this was even a possibility.

You can change the sex marker on your passport and your driving licence now, just by ringing up and asking. Hospital wards are self-ID. Being a girl guide leader is self-ID. Almost everything already is self-ID.

Fishcakey Mon 02-Dec-19 22:32:07

@LangCleg I'm sorry to sound so thick about this but you actually need no proof to do this??

theflushedzebra Mon 02-Dec-19 22:38:44

You used to need a letter from the GP I think. Not sure if that's still the case.

Multiple organisations (inc schools, hospitals, the police, govt departments, the NHS) are all acting like gender self ID is law already.

Labour allows transwomen without a GRC onto their all women shortlists - and stated they were deliberately "acting ahead of the anticipated law change" - and are fighting this in court.

Yet, biological female is a protected characteristic under the law - and everyone ignores this.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 02-Dec-19 22:42:08

I guess this is what happens when a party drives out all the female members who otherwise would have done the canvassing (properly, without pissing off potential voters).

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