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I’m so confused by my opinion on the transgender debate

(277 Posts)
OkayOkay1 Fri 29-Nov-19 20:16:14

I have never, ever known a trans person in real life. I thought I had my opinions on the whole issue until this season of I’m a Celebrity. I know it sounds silly, but listening to Caitlyn’s plight has made me question everything.

My views have always been that sex should be determined at birth and cannot be changed but that gender is something that people can choose if they so wish.

That way, sporting events should be categorised by sex, regardless of what gender you may identify as.

I also sympathised with the fact that women who have been subjected to abuse from males would hugely benefit from toilets etc being strictly female only. Although I could see an argument for trans women using women’s toilets at a point where they have fully transitioned surgically.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has. Being in the public eye, the transition process must have been even more daunting. She has lost family over this. I feel for her so much and think that I would love her to be fully treated as a woman. She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am really confused. 😔

HorseWithNoFucksToGive Fri 29-Nov-19 20:19:13

You'll like it here

PerrysWinkle Fri 29-Nov-19 20:21:11

Wouldn’t it be really humiliating for women athletes to have to stand in the start line against males? You don’t know their background, they might have had a tough life too but I don’t think we should be prioritising the men in female spaces.

JPharm Fri 29-Nov-19 20:21:43

I urge you to run now 😂!!

NotTerfNorCis Fri 29-Nov-19 20:21:57

Was Jenner always secretly convinced Jenner was female, or was Jenner a cross dresser who got caught out?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Fri 29-Nov-19 20:22:15



SlightlyBonkersQFA Fri 29-Nov-19 20:22:32

Hmmm. Not watching IACGMOOH but anybody can make an issue about them. We all have a sad story. There is more at stake.

IfIShouldFallFromGraceWithGod Fri 29-Nov-19 20:23:50

You can support both as long as you don't pretend they are the same.
Women can only have rights if their sex is recognised. I think trans women and men would be better supported if we didn't pretend they are not trans
Both can be supported if kept separate

RoyalCorgi Fri 29-Nov-19 20:24:03


dontalltalkatonce Fri 29-Nov-19 20:24:24

What's confusing? Woman = adult human female. Caitlyn Jenner is a transwoman. There.

TowelNumber42 Fri 29-Nov-19 20:26:03

I'm sure she would feel uncomfortable if she weren't treated exactly like a woman given how trouble she has gone to to look like a woman.

What about all the women though? Her going into women's sport would push other women down the rankings. Her going into a women's changing room might make the women feel uncomfortable. Why would her discomfort trump all of theirs?

FlamingoAndJohn Fri 29-Nov-19 20:27:35

I know what you mean. It would be odd for her to go into the men’s changing room at the gym. However an ‘intact’ male (I have no idea if she has had an op or not) really has no place in a woman’s changing room.

OkayOkay1 Fri 29-Nov-19 20:28:10

I’ve posted here because I know I am not as educated on the issue as many of you are and I really wanted to hear your views as I thought this would put my feelings into perspective. I’m a very empathetic person (which has been to my detriment many times in my life) so I know I have a tendency to feel so saddened by the feelings that others have had to experience that I can’t always see the bigger picture. I’m not trying to upset/annoy anyone on here. I just want to understand things a little better.

SophoclesTheFox Fri 29-Nov-19 20:29:32

I’m curious as to what Jenner has “been through”, exactly?

I don’t know all of the back story, but from what I do know, Jenner was a prominent, successful athlete who was held up as a role model, married extremely well, fathered children with successful careers of their own, has always had money and work aplenty. Also killed a woman in a car crash and was not prosecuted, and now gets paid to be on reality TV and magazine covers.

I wonder what the story that the “lost” family members would tell is? Would it match up with Jenner’s version of events?

I’m just not sure what the suffering consists of, to be honest.

Chiochan Fri 29-Nov-19 20:29:53

ok, so Ill probably get banned for this but..

does 'she' really have a tragic back story, really, more tragic than women being raped and killed around the world?

or is it a case of too much attention, esp sexualised attention, and money going to other members of her family?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Fri 29-Nov-19 20:30:05

Right good for you.

theflushedzebra Fri 29-Nov-19 20:30:25

You can feel sympathy for individual trans people - but I've thought of Caitlyn Jenner as a cross-dresser.

I was very sympathetic with transwomen until they started with the TWAW crap and started abusing and silencing women for saying 'well hang on a minute, I'm not sure your experiences are quite the same as mine, as I grew up and was socialised female - and please don't call me a "cervic haver" or cis. Thanks.'

TeenPlusTwenties Fri 29-Nov-19 20:33:11

I think you can feel sympathy/empathy for individuals without accepting that sex based segregation needs to change.

It isn't fair to the other competitors for transwomen to compete against women. So a side effect of choosing to transition is you can't do competitive sports any more. It's tough for someone who likes competing in sport, but that's the way it needs to be to keep the sport fair. When someone decides to transition they need to take this into account.

Similarly changing rooms. The transwoman may no longer feel comfortable in the mens, but many women don't feel comfortable with transwomen in the womens as these days we have no idea who is 'true' trans and who is using trans as a cover. So a third space is needed.

allmywhat Fri 29-Nov-19 20:34:17

Oh, goody, somebody has some innocent questions!

Perhaps I can save us all some time.

Is it really necessary to ban men from women's sports? My Uncle George was very bad at running and he always ran with the girls and even then he came last. Personally I don't have any problem sharing toilets or changing rooms with men, it's not like a sign on the door will keep them out anyway, why do so many silly women think it will! Uncle George always said the womens' changing rooms were way stinkier than the men's! I know some women have suffered trauma or whatever but.. Uncle George! Also I don't do risk management because fractions are hard. Okay, I'm just going to throw a dead cat on the table and run off!

(If you're confused, OP, don't worry about it. I'm just amusing myself by predicting the direction of this thread - nothing personal.)

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Fri 29-Nov-19 20:36:28


That's unfair, the OP has presumably only just realized adult humans have histories and it's made them confused.

MrsWednesdayteatime Fri 29-Nov-19 20:37:15

I would love her to be fully treated as a woman.

Should men & women be treated differently? How do you mean, do you OP treat men and women differently and if so how?

Apart from my safe access to single sex spaces I don't want to be treat differently to a man.

I want my daughter to be respected and offered every opportunity the boys get at school, do you think she should be treat differently, as a woman?

WorkingItOutAsIGo Fri 29-Nov-19 20:37:23

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Gingerkittykat Fri 29-Nov-19 20:37:57

You can have compassion for a human being while still being gender critical.

Again it would be wrong for Jenner to compete in women's sport, and the rights of women for dignity in sex segregated spaces comes before their feelings.

SophoclesTheFox Fri 29-Nov-19 20:39:43

I got my one and only deletion EVAH for saying that, working.

Mention AGP and start counting down till your post gets whooshed away...

DancelikeEmmaGoldman Fri 29-Nov-19 20:41:06

Much feted, millionaire sporting hero wears his daughter’s knickers, has lots of plastic surgery and wins woman of the year award in a designer corset. The struggle is real.

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