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Gender critical SNP candidate ditched by party

(74 Posts)
BlackForestCake Fri 29-Nov-19 20:14:26

Two weeks before polling day the SNP has dumped a candidate and withdrawn all support for him: www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-withdraws-support-for-kirkcaldy-and-cowdenbeath-candidate-neale-hanvey-1-5054128

Neale Hanvey, standing in Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath, will still be on the ballot as the papers have already been printed. He is accused of having shared allegedly antisemitic content on Facebook in 2016.

I am not the only one who thinks allegedly antisemitic posts are not the real reason. Hanvey supports the Women's Pledge and has met ForWomen Scotland. I think he has been targeted from within the SNP for his support for women's rights. We know that there are genderist extremists who have infiltrated the party. We can now also see that they would rather hand the seat to a unionist than have an SNP MP who supports women.

(This hypothesis is now being denounced by sockpuppets on Twitter as a "conspiracy theory", which suggests that it's correct).

Chiochan Fri 29-Nov-19 20:22:08

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Gingerkittykat Fri 29-Nov-19 20:31:59

Sharing articles on social media seems like a bizarre reason to ditch someone,

I'm assuming he will still be a candidate, just an independent and not SNP. Suspending their representation in the ward seems like an own goal.

BlackForestCake Fri 29-Nov-19 21:26:57

It could well help Labour hold the seat who only had a majority of 500 last time.

Birdsfoottrefoil Fri 29-Nov-19 21:53:57

As I understand it it was a cartoon of George Soros acting puppet master to puppets of various world leaders.

GrumpyGran8 Fri 29-Nov-19 21:55:11

I'm assuming he will still be a candidate, just an independent and not SNP.
Yes, he will be - just seen a tweet from him reminding everyone that he's still standing. Maybe some of the local SNP members will continue to canvass for him?

Birdsfoottrefoil Fri 29-Nov-19 22:04:49

I guess what turns such a cartoon from a reflection on the undemocratic powers of the extraordinarily weathly into an antisemetic poster would be the representation of George Soros.

JanesKettle Fri 29-Nov-19 22:06:20

As I understand it it was a cartoon of George Soros acting puppet master to puppets of various world leaders.

If this is the case, then they absolutely did the right thing to drop him. My gender-critical feminism doesn't come with a side helping of anti-Semitic tropes, and I don't want to be associated in any way, shape or form with someone who shares those tropes.

AnyOldPrion Fri 29-Nov-19 22:11:18

I’ve been frustrated because my SNP candidate has been very tight lipped. I’ve been told privately he’s GC, if a bit under informed. I’m not frustrated with him now. Clearly it’s the right decision to stay quiet. Neale has been under attack for days and he’s been wholly clear that he stands for women’s rights.

The fact that they’ve allegedly done this to a popular candidate two weeks before a GE speaks volumes. I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that these tweets from two years ago came to light now.

Feel sickened. Chiochan, I wish your friend had asked for details.

SuperLoudPoppingAction Fri 29-Nov-19 22:11:23

Eesh for a moment I thought they had dropped someone decent like Joanna Cherry

nauticant Fri 29-Nov-19 22:39:23

Having had a quick look on twitter I'm seeing a lot of "Soros is Jewish? No one knew that" from people seeking to support Neale. If that's the defence it's probably best not to say it and instead to withdraw gracefully.

ScrimshawTheSecond Fri 29-Nov-19 22:45:21

There seem to have been several candidates from various parties kicked out or suspended over social media posts lately.

But the prime minister makes the most egregious comments and it's apparently fine.

BlackForestCake Fri 29-Nov-19 22:46:44

I'd hope everyone is against anti-Semitic tropes. And can put their support of/opposition to/indifference to Scottish independence to one side to observe what is going on. That's what is interesting about this case: who the people targeting Hanvey are, what allies they have and what is happening inside and outside the SNP.

As I said at the beginning, the stuff about Soros is not the real reason.

JanesKettle Fri 29-Nov-19 22:55:05

Well, I agreee it 's probably not the real reason, not least because we, worldwide, tolerate an immense amount of anti-semitism, and fail to take it seriously on a regular basis.

Still, I don't want to be associated with the kind of person who posts Soros tropes. I don't care if it's bad for GC's. I'm not paying for gender critical success with anti-Jewishness, even if that anti-Jewishness is in his past.

Others can feel differently, of course, and weight the issues in another way.

AnyOldPrion Fri 29-Nov-19 23:34:25

Anyone criticising Soros’s financial input into transactivism is smeared as anti-Semitic. I was called that on Twitter for mentioning him in relation to his transactivism. At the time, I didn’t even know he was Jewish.

xxyzz Sat 30-Nov-19 09:13:05

Anyone mentioning Soros' financial input is an anti-Semite.

FTFY.

Sorry, you'd have to have lived in a cave for the last few years not to know that Soros is just the latest bogeyman for those anti-Semites who a decade ago would have referred to the Rothschilds. And references to Soros and money = anti-Semitic dogwhistles.

Profoundly depressing when women who should recognise discrimination because we get it ourselves all the time rush to defend anti-Semites.

xxyzz Sat 30-Nov-19 09:16:47

And thank you, JanesKettle for standing against anti-Semitism.

Bloody hell, this election is depressing.

If I have one more Labour person telling me that anti-Semitism in Labour is a smear or asking my permission as a Jew to ignore it, I shall scream.

JanesKettle Sat 30-Nov-19 09:24:09

Welcome, xxyzz.

NonnyMouse1337 Sat 30-Nov-19 09:26:52

Never heard of the SNP candidate.

anti-Semitic tropes or cartoons are clearly not a good thing to be sharing on social media.

Is Soros beyond any criticism because he is Jewish? Especially if he is involved heavily in funding transgender ideology? How does one approach this aspect?

Seems like the right decision for the SNP to drop him if there was clear evidence of him sharing this image. Since he's still standing as an independent candidate, voters can decide if they wish to vote for him or not.

JanesKettle Sat 30-Nov-19 09:40:11

Of course Soros is not beyond criticism, but people do have to be careful how they do so, and make sure they are not invoking, even unwittingly, some really ugly anti-Jewish tropes as they do so. The one invoked here is of Soros as the shadowy puppet master.

Soros does fund, through his philanthropy, transgenderist causes, along with many other causes.

He should not be singled out for special opprobrium from other wealthy Americans and corporations doing the same, nor should he be used as the 'face' of pro-trans conspiracy, imo. That's sailing too close to the long and ugly history of Jew-blaming, imo.

Cohle Sat 30-Nov-19 10:06:54

Becoming an apologist for anti-semites because they happen to be gender critical is abhorrent. I really think some FWR posters need to consider the people they are allying themselves with in the name of GC.

Goannaforanna Sat 30-Nov-19 10:26:36

Is this the article he shared sputniknews.com/world/201608151044266398-soros-dcleaks-russian-hacker-hillary/

JanesKettle Sat 30-Nov-19 10:28:38

oh my goodness, that image...not OK.

53rdWay Sat 30-Nov-19 10:28:49

I'm really not interested in excusing SNP candidates for antisemitism because people think it's 'just a smear' and 'not the real reason' or whatever. I don't care what his other views are. Bad enough when Labour do this, we don't need two parties going down that road.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Sat 30-Nov-19 10:33:03

Joanna Cherry is clearly gender critical and she hasn’t been dropped. I think you’re looking for reasons that aren’t there.

nauticant Sat 30-Nov-19 10:35:37

Here's my suggestion. Criticise Soros for what he does but before you do that read up on what he does. Particularly that his support for pro-trans causes is in the context of vast support for all kinds of progressive causes.

And when you do criticise him, don't use anti-Semitic tropes.

NonnyMouse1337 Sat 30-Nov-19 10:40:48

He should not be singled out for special opprobrium from other wealthy Americans and corporations doing the same, nor should he be used as the 'face' of pro-trans conspiracy, imo.

Yes you're right. Based on what's been uncovered, the SNP made a good call.

Birdsfoottrefoil Sat 30-Nov-19 10:41:54

How do we criticise the power of the extraordinary wealthy? There are very few of these individuals so you inevitably end up at the individual level with your criticism.

Philanthropy is not a neutral ‘good thing’; it is about using their money as power to over-ride governing systems. Historically there has been a lot of good done this way - a way of ‘paying back’ money (often made through exploitation of the poor). But it is still about changing society in a way an individual sees fit. George Soros’s, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet etc all absolutely need to have their individual philanthropic ideas scrutinised and held up to the light.

JanesKettle Sat 30-Nov-19 10:52:49

Well, you don't use the image of a puppet master sad

I think I could manage to discuss what someone's wealth funds without using that image. It's not required to hold up ideas to the light.

Goannaforanna Sat 30-Nov-19 10:56:28

I can't say that I would have identified that image as anti-semitic.

SuperLoudPoppingAction Sat 30-Nov-19 10:58:28

People affected by antisemitism have identified these kinds of images as antisemitic.

It definitely relies on ideas around Jewish people controlling world affairs which link in with antisemitism

Goannaforanna Sat 30-Nov-19 11:05:41

That may be true but that does not mean that anyone who does not know this is antisemitic.

SuperLoudPoppingAction Sat 30-Nov-19 11:10:36

I have fairly strong feelings about how insidious prejudice can be when it's shown through imagery.

I think it's easy to find amusement or accuracy in an image without being as reflective around the symbolism as you might be if things were written down.

Eg that cartoon of Serena Williams.

If you don't know and you're a random member of the public then please learn.

If you're running as an MP imo you should have a sense of whether something might be too controversial to post. Or know the right people to ask.

I think a spring clean of any social media you've used is probably a good idea too.

reginafelangee Sat 30-Nov-19 11:17:10

It will be tough for the Momentum types now - vote for one of their own or the Labour candidate.

Germ1360 Sat 30-Nov-19 11:18:43

Anti-Semitism is alive and well, sadly. But criticism of Soros which makes no reference to his faith is not Anti-Semitism. It's just criticism, and is justified.

reginafelangee Sat 30-Nov-19 11:19:07

And Hanvey has been taken down for his anti-semitism.

Sorry to disappoint. Not everything is about the evil trans conspiracy. 😱

JanesKettle Sat 30-Nov-19 11:19:20

The most common anti-Semitic stereotypes and narratives associate Jews with wealth, power and conspiracy.

"They promote the idea that Jews have a peculiar and amoral desire for money; that they use their alleged power to conspire for malign and selfish ends.

www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/what-is-anti-semitism-the-definition-explained-and-how-anti-jewish-tropes-developed-throughout-history/ar-BBXvdIo

Super basic explanation incl some mention of common tropes.

ScrimshawTheSecond Sat 30-Nov-19 11:26:31

Soros is wealthy and powerful. I didn't know he was Jewish. Isn't the criticism to do with how he's using that wealth and power?

nauticant Sat 30-Nov-19 11:41:02

If most people were told that they were using anti-gay tropes, anti-immigrant tropes, anti-Muslim tropes, etc they would be horrified, would apologise, and would say they'll be more aware in the future.

When it comes to anti-Semitic tropes it's a shrug and "how was I supposed to know?"

Goannaforanna Sat 30-Nov-19 12:18:29

I thought that that was what the candidate did, apologise?

Germ1360 Sat 30-Nov-19 15:27:54

Um, the problem here is, Soros just happens to be Jewish and purely coincidentally fit some of the ugly stereotypes (re. Money, power, influence) some people subscribe to about Jews. If we say anything re. him having any of the above, even without reference to religion, we're accused of anti-Semitism. And that ends up muddying the waters and leads people to dismiss actual anti-Semitism, which does exist and should not be denied.

AnyOldPrion Sat 30-Nov-19 16:56:38

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Germ1360 Sat 30-Nov-19 17:11:16

Exacto, AnyOld.

53rdWay Sat 30-Nov-19 17:58:58

Kevin Alfred Strom is a neo-Nazi. An actual neo-Nazi. Perhaps not the best authority to lean on while explaining that we're being 'ruled over' by a Jewish philanthropist, eh?

Fucking hell this thread is depressing.

AnyOldPrion Sat 30-Nov-19 19:44:41

I’m sorry 53rd in that case. It’s a quotation I’ve heard often, I think here on this board. I didn’t the background and probably should have checked.

I have generally kept out of the argument about anti-semitism as (as has been illustrated here) I don’t know enough to comment on that topic.

But I cannot have been anti-semitic in commenting on someone I did not know was Jewish. Anyone accusing me of that in the complete absence of any evidence (how could there be evidence of it if I didn’t know?) is showing their own prejudice.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain Sat 30-Nov-19 20:10:57

Our enemy's enemy is not always our friend. Especially not when our enemy's enemy shares anti-Semitic imagery on social media hmm

There are a good few people here saying 'well how was I to know?' who would hand anyone turning up on FWR to plead ignorance about something misogynistic, their arse on a plate. Ignorance of anti-semitism isn't an excuse for it any more than ignorance about feminism (expressed as NAMALT/just be kind/rape myths) is an excuse for misogyny.

I agree that this thread is fast becoming entirely depressing.

AnyOldPrion Sat 30-Nov-19 20:29:34

who would hand anyone turning up on FWR to plead ignorance about something misogynistic, their arse on a plate.

Exactly. We’re on a feminism board discussing feminist issues, and I believe this is one. Handing people their arse on a feminism board because they don’t know the ins and outs of modern anti-semitism is hardly the same as criticising them for their ignorance of feminism.

And for what it’s worth, when I first came here, I was ignorant and I did have my arse handed to me. But because there were also decent people who took the time to explain the issues with patience, I learned.

What I’m taking away from this thread is that you think I’m an idiot. And that’s one good reason why I don’t necessarily want to learn more about this particular topic.

Cohle Sat 30-Nov-19 21:10:48

You don't want to bother learning more about anti-semitism because someone has pointed out your ignorance? That's the laziest most ridiculous excuse for prejudice I've ever heard.

GrumpyGran8 Sat 30-Nov-19 21:17:59

Here's my suggestion. Criticise Soros for what he does but before you do that read up on what he does. Particularly that his support for pro-trans causes is in the context of vast support for all kinds of progressive causes.
And he doesn't personally decide which causes his Foundation hands funds to anyway. Thewhole point of a charitable foundation is that a board of trustees makes those decisions, so that the founder can't play favourites

GrumpyGran8 Sat 30-Nov-19 21:34:01

I thought that that was what the candidate did, apologise?
Yes, here's his statement.
Please note that he didn't share the cartoon, but an article that the cartoon was embedded in; he probably didn't even see it.
Now, let me tell you a story. The very first tweet from Magdelen Berns was that I saw swas - apparently - an anti-semitic cartoon about George Soros; it was the image that came up in the tweet, with no text. As a result, I spent several months dismissing her and refusing to watch any of her videos. I really did think she was anti-semitic! It was only when i posted something to that effect (it may even have been on here) and got rightly jumped on, that I went back and searched for the tweet. It turned out that Berns had actually RTd an article on anti-semitism that was illustrated with that vile cartoon, and it was that image that had come up in the tweet.
So, I'm prepared to give Hanvey the benefit of the doubt on this.

nauticant Sat 30-Nov-19 21:42:14

That's very informative GrumpyGran8.

If Hanvey has sincerely apologised then credit to him. The value of this thread is to see how often we see that, when it comes to anti-Semitism, "how was I supposed to know that" is advanced as a defence instead of "gosh, really, then I'm apologise for getting it badly wrong".

JanesKettle Sat 30-Nov-19 21:50:54

nauticant

Not speaking about this thread or FWR particularly, but it's been truly depressing the last few years to see 1. how much casual anti-Semistism there is in society and 2. how little people are bothered about it.

I am not particularly educated in these topics - I'm not Jewish, I haven't studied history or religion past 12th grade - anything I know just comes from general reading and general exposure. But a lot of the time it's just so clear - murals included. I felt the puppet master image was likewise clear to the average person who has had some high school exposure to, say, anti- Jewish propaganda used by Nazis.

nauticant Sat 30-Nov-19 22:00:09

It is an eye-opener. Until I found this thread I found myself scratching my head over the whole Labour and unthinking anti-Semitism thing. "How do people, especially progressives, get into that mode of thinking?" I asked myself.

Well, thanks to this thread I now have some insights.

JanesKettle Sat 30-Nov-19 22:09:56

scratching my head over the whole Labour and unthinking anti-Semitism thing.

See, that's never surprised me, because Labor is pro-Palestinian (as am I), and unless one is careful to examine one's language + perspective, it's quite easy to adopt unthinkingly anti-Semitic attitudes and speech eg calling out the nation of Israel, instead of policies enacted by the current Israeli government.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain Sat 30-Nov-19 22:39:22

I think he's done well with that apology. Good for him. I also think that it would help if everyone standing for office tried to understand what people are pointing to in this conversation about anti-semitism. It really doesn't take too much mental agility to understand that, for example, comparing Israel to the Nazis is likely to be fucking offensive hmm

AnyOldPrion Sat 30-Nov-19 22:59:40

You don't want to bother learning more about anti-semitism because someone has pointed out your ignorance? That's the laziest most ridiculous excuse for prejudice I've ever heard.

Hmmm... I said because I was being treated like an idiot. I know I’m not perfect, but I’m not an idiot and don’t deserve to be treated as one.

Anyway, I seem to have had a post deleted, presumably for posting a quotation which I looked up too quickly. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it posted here a number of times and therefore did not check properly.

I see it was genuinely from an anti-Semitic source and I am sorry to anyone I offended.

Goannaforanna Sun 01-Dec-19 00:09:54

My comments about not knowing were not to deny that the cartoon would be interpreted as anti-semitic but to point out that it's entirely possible to not be anti-semitic and not to know that the image was a problem (and like someone else, I also didn't know that George Soros was Jewish. I actually presumed that the cartoon must have applied Jewish appearance tropes so that people knew but it didn't). My concern is that those going on about prejudice are seemingly not concerned whether this person is actually anti-semitic. He shared the news piece, it contained something that people understanding to be antisemitic and the fact that he may have been unaware of that is irrelevant. Cancel culture at its best.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain Sun 01-Dec-19 10:13:47

Well it sounds like he did a bit more than that from his apology. And he did it in a political climate where perhaps it might be helpful if people standing for public office tried to understand anti-Semitism and actively avoid it rather than simply blundering around in a sensitive discourse. So no, I don't agree.

Itsallgonetoofar Sun 01-Dec-19 10:56:11

The Jewish puppet master is an old anti Semitic trope, someone with sufficient interest in politics to stand as a candidate should be aware of that.

He may have been targeted for exposure because of his GC views but if he hadn't anti Semitic behaviour to expose he wouldn't have had a problem. As long as they remove all candidates behaving the same I don't have any sympathy.

Unfortunately ruling out parties supporting those with anti Semitic and anti Islam views plus the outright racists and women haters takes out all major parties in England hmm

SonicVersusGynaephobia Sun 01-Dec-19 17:20:39

Oh dear. I didn't know Soros was Jewish. I wouldn't have recognised him in the cartoon. I didn't know a puppet master was an anti-Jewish trope. And I would criticise anyone wealthy and male who was funding transgender ideology.

I am quite clued-in on feminism, but not religion etc (because I have no interest in it). I appreciate that politicians need to have more awareness than your average person though and so more should be obvious to them.

This has been an inside job from the Wee Woke Clique of the SNP Trans Lobby though, all because he signed the Women's Pledge. Now they are trying to blame Joanna Cherry for it!

AnyOldPrion Sun 01-Dec-19 17:24:43

Now they are trying to blame Joanna Cherry for it!

On Twitter? Are there screenshots? (or a link, though if they’re very woke, they may have blocked me).

TimeLady Sun 01-Dec-19 17:33:31

I didn't know Soros was Jewish. I wouldn't have recognised him in the cartoon. I didn't know a puppet master was an anti-Jewish trope. And I would criticise anyone wealthy and male who was funding transgender ideology.

Me neither. And being Jewish doesn't absolve him from criticism of his actions. I

TimeLady Sun 01-Dec-19 17:35:47

I didn't know Soros was Jewish. I wouldn't have recognised him in the cartoon. I didn't know a puppet master was an anti-Jewish trope. And I would criticise anyone wealthy and male who was funding transgender ideology.

Me neither. Being Jewish doesn't absolve him from being accountable for his actions either. I regard him as a malign influence.

SonicVersusGynaephobia Sun 01-Dec-19 17:36:04

Seen it in a few places, but this was one tweet talking about it:

twitter.com/GordonHay404/status/1201105813424758790?s=19

AnyOldPrion Sun 01-Dec-19 19:05:22

Thanks Sonic. That was utterly predictable. The power behind this movement continues to be frightening.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain Sun 01-Dec-19 19:25:08

No one has said that being Jewish absolves anyone of anything. They have said that criticism of Soros should not veer into anti-Semitism. Which is surely obviously true?

JanesKettle Sun 01-Dec-19 20:11:59

twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1201065815740694528

JanesKettle Sun 01-Dec-19 20:24:06

www.facebook.com/events/2404634499865765/

Clearly, one can critique Soros along with others who put money into promoting genderist causes. Just don't use anti-Jewish tropes to do it.

If you didn't know about the puppet master thing, you didn't know. Now you do. 20 min on the internet will give you an overview of the major tropes, many of which have been present in society for centuries.

Jewish women and girls are females too, who are impacted by anti-Semitic imagery and language. Out of sisterhood, if nothing else, we can make the effort to make any critiques of Soros free of anti-Jewishness.

TimeLady Sun 01-Dec-19 20:48:34

Ok

TimeLady Sun 01-Dec-19 20:53:11

Not sure where that ok came from? It wouldn't even cross my mind to use anti-Jewish tropes. Soros is an exiled Hungarian billionaire who lives in the States, I believe, and needs to keep his nose and his money out of European affairs.

Goannaforanna Mon 02-Dec-19 07:59:35

Absolutely Janeskettle. My comments arise from the idea that it seems currently very easy to say or do something wrong out of ignorance or a different viewpoint or understanding (I'm not saying that this is in play in this case but I have seen it in others- particularly where Americans wish to push their view of the world as the only one) and that's the end of you. It seems that it has become irrelevant whether someone is actually racist or antisemitic or ablest or whatever- if they say or do something considered not right they should be shunned. I think it's very unhelpful but it is evident in this convo.

Cohle Mon 02-Dec-19 09:30:51

I think people running for public office have a duty to educate themselves enough that they don't share discriminatory pictures out of ignorance.

If you were a Jewish family living in his constituency how do you think you'd feel possibly having him represent you in parliament? Knowing that he felt anti-semitism was an issue it was ok to be ignorant about or "to have a different viewpoint or understanding" about?

LangCleg Mon 02-Dec-19 09:59:33

I think people running for public office have a duty to educate themselves enough that they don't share discriminatory pictures out of ignorance.

For once, Cohle, we actually agree about something!

I think that everyone standing for political office needs to approach this issue - in which people of good faith can genuinely disagree about the rights and wrongs of the Israel/Palestine situation - in the same way sectarianism is approached in NI and Scotland. Language, cultural signifiers, images etc, are all hotly contested and highly emotive and must be implemented with an extremely high duty of care. Ignorance cannot be an excuse.

Goannaforanna Mon 02-Dec-19 10:36:13

I don't expect everyone to know everything. I'm part of a marginalised group- one that's not all that uncommon. I don't imagine that my elected reps will know how to speak on issues related to my community. What I do expect is that they be willing to learn and that they treat people with respect.

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