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RollOnFriday - law firm writes report called "Only adults? Good practices in legal gender recognition for youth"

(110 Posts)
somebrightmorning Fri 29-Nov-19 19:04:14

RollOnFriday is a satirical online magazine for solicitors.

Dentons is a very very large law firm (but I'm not impressed because I remember them when they were merely Denton Hall....)

I commend this article from RollOnFriday to you:

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/dentons-campaigns-kids-switch-gender-without-parental-approval

and I see RollOnFriday also reported this:

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/lesbian-barrister-investigated-setting-lgb-group

You will like this extract:
"Critics of gender self-ID have warned that it will adversely impact women and children in many areas, including rape crisis centres, single-sex hospital wards, women’s sport and identification of discrimination. Dentons' 65-page report characterises their position in two sentences, as concerns which "normally come from women’s groups" about "female prisoners and female public toilets".

Dentons' report also describes critics of gender self-ID as 'TERFs', which began as an acronym for "trans-exclusionary radical feminists" and is understood by many of its targets as a misogynist slur.

When it was asked to comment on aspects of its report, Dentons initially offered up Atanas Politov, its Director for Pro Bono, for an interview. Then it asked for written questions in advance. When these were provided, the world's largest firm by headcount was unable to find anyone prepared to answer them, and gave a general statement instead."

My own position is that hormonal or surgical intervention on a 12 year old is prima facie child abuse and so I'm very surprised that Dentons published such a report.

somebrightmorning Fri 29-Nov-19 19:15:20

It seems the journalist is not exagerrating. Here are some quotes from Dentons' report:

"7. Tie your campaign to more popular reform
In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.

8. Avoid excessive press coverage and exposure
Another technique which has been used to great effect is the limitation of press coverage and exposure. In certain countries, like the UK, information on legal gender recognition reforms has been misinterpreted in the mainstream media, and opposition has arisen as a result. The effects of this can be dangerous: two out of five transgender people experience hate crime each year in the UK, with young people the least likely to report incidents to the police.37 One in four trans people (26 per cent) directly experience transphobic abuse online each month.38 The UK Home Office have reported that hate crime in general has risen by 48 per cent between 2014 and 2017, with the number of recorded hate crimes and incidents based on sexual orientation rising by 70 percent over the same period.39Against this background, many believe that public campaigning has been detrimental to progress, as much of the general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise. In Ireland, activists have directly lobbied individual politicians and tried to keep press coverage to a minimum in order to avoid this issue. Similarly, in Norway, campaigners developed strong ties with youth politicians, who then presented to the senior members of their parties on the changes that were needed. This technique was effective at persuading more senior politicians, as the changes were being suggested from within their own party rather than an external organisation. We also saw this technique in Denmark.

somebrightmorning Fri 29-Nov-19 19:30:41

And here we have Dentons' summary of the position in the UK

"Media / Public Sentiment
Unfortunately, NGOs noted that the current cultural climate in the UK is “trans-hostile”, noting that the debate on gender recognition had been picked up by the right-wing press. For this reason, NGOs in the UK agreed that using human stories and real trans experiences to campaign for legal change is effective but are currently unable to profile anyone due to the aggressive nature of the current debate. This is especially a concern in relation to young people as there are circumstances where they could be particularly vulnerable as a result of trans-hostile rhetoric. The NGOs observed that many mainstream and right-wing media outlets have given platforms to the voices of trans exclusionary radical feminists (“TERFs”), a term coined by a journalist at the Guardian, a national newspaper. These voices normally come from women’s groups who express concern over streamlining the process for legal gender recognition. Their concerns largely include female prisoners and female public toilets. The UK has been unable to avoid excessive coverage in the media. The NGOs observed that this has meant much of the debate has been confused and does not actually discuss the point at issue, being legal gender recognition, but rather intertwines it with discussions regarding medical surgeries. This is something which the NGOs in the UK are trying to counter-act, as they recognise it as a good practice for advocating trans rights.

ReflectionsThe major lesson NGOs drew from the UK experience is the importance of avoiding, where possible, excessive and negative press coverage. Largely as a result of such press coverage, legal gender recognition continues to be an incredibly divisive issue in the UK.Despite the government consultations, there are no current dates for introducing a self-determination model and further to this, it appears that, in the event of legislative reform, it is unlikely that transgender children under the age of 16 will have access to the process to change their legal gender. Unfortunately, the Scottish government and UK government have not yet put in place a plan for updating the Gender Recognition Act after their consultation and it is possible that this delay is due to the political uncertainty, busy nature of Parliament at this time and Brexit taking priority. There is currently no date set for the UK government response to the consultation or the draft legislation from the Scottish government"

PygmyHippoBob Fri 29-Nov-19 19:49:33

ROF are pleasingly GC. See also:

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/sra-slammed-erasing-sex-its-inclusive-diversity-survey

And the coverage of SH vs Glinner.

Even their discussion forum is GC:

www.rollonfriday.com/discussion/why-are-libdems-doing-so-badly

Michelleoftheresistance Fri 29-Nov-19 19:50:16

as much of the general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise.

Absolutely.

Misinterpretations like 'there is no conflict with women's fundamental rights' and 'single sex provisions will be preserved'.

Disingenuous article. The general public 'not being properly informed' is a deliberate state maintained with great effort, Whittle and co have explained it at frequent intervals.

The whole 'you'd understand if you'd just educate yourself' is another misconception. People protesting and resisting this have educated themselves extensively, and their primary source has been TRAs, their videos, their articles, their own explanations of their ideology. They are educated: their answer is emphatically no. In fact the 'no' for many people followed becoming educated, when they'd previously been all 'yes' in happy ignorance. I was one of them.

Destroying women's rights, safeguarding, unethical medical practice on children, excluding women from women's spaces, all of this is wrong. It's easy to see.

NonnyMouse1337 Fri 29-Nov-19 20:05:09

Sorry, I'm a bit confused. The magazine is satirical, but if I understood it correctly, the articles you posted aren't?

Dollywilde Fri 29-Nov-19 20:08:43

RollOnFriday is the ‘humour’ side of legal press but it does report on serious news with an eye to stuff the official press doesn’t tend to have. They often don’t qualm at calling out partners accused of sexual offences in the way other websites do.

I read that article and thought they were taking great pains to be balanced as they’ve often been called out about being GC before, particularly in the recent article about the barrister who has set up and LGB network specifically excluding the T.

I’m not wild about it but it does mean it hasn’t attracted the comments their other articles have in the past.

nauticant Fri 29-Nov-19 21:37:08

From the Dentons article:

“This report was prepared on a pro bono basis", said Dentons

Sometimes this stuff writes itself.

somebrightmorning Sat 30-Nov-19 09:32:18

Roll on is sort of half gossip, half trade magazine.
The serious stuff has a bit of a Private Eye feel.
It is very widely read. It is funded by law firms recruitment ads I think.

somebrightmorning Sat 30-Nov-19 09:34:01

“Sorry, I'm a bit confused. The magazine is satirical, but if I understood it correctly, the articles you posted aren't?”
Correct, think Private Eye. You open it up for a cynical laugh but then they slot in important stuff.

Ereshkigal Sat 30-Nov-19 11:14:39

A fan of ours comments below the article:

Just ban Mumsnet now 30 November 19 06:29
TERF is not a misogynist slur, and if you "understand" it that way then you "understand" it wrong and should make more effort to "understand" words properly. TERFs are exactly what the term suggests and they represent a fringe agenda comparable in its aggressive reactionary fervour to the incels. Goodness knows why ROF has decided to take their side (for the record, this article was anything but "balanced").

NonnyMouse1337 Mon 02-Dec-19 07:09:07

Thanks for clarifying Dollywilde and somebrightmorning. smile

Sorry, I got busy over the weekend and forgot about this. Going to read them this morning. Looks like more invaluable info.

TimeLady Mon 02-Dec-19 14:41:11

James Kirkup has picked up on this in The Spectator

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-report-that-reveals-the-disturbing-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

RoyalCorgi Mon 02-Dec-19 15:46:45

We had a discussion about this report last week, but the Roll on Friday report is new, so thanks for that. And also good to see James Kirkup picking it up.

It is incredibly sinister for a large law firm to be promoting this particular agenda in this way without any kind of concern for the legal complexities or controversies involved.

stealthsquirrelnutkin Mon 02-Dec-19 15:56:36

Fascinating to see it all laid out so clearly. I've posted a link to the Spectator article on Facebook, wonder what my "you're imagining it" "you're obsessed with that nonsense" friends will think, if they read it.

RubyViolet Mon 02-Dec-19 16:04:21

I hope James can write further on this and explore this method of working in the shadows further. We all knew that this was what is happening. Sunlight indeed !

Ereshkigal Mon 02-Dec-19 16:07:07

In a democracy, we are all free to argue for whatever policy or position we wish. But normally, anyone who wants to change the law accepts that to do so they need to win the support or, at least, the consent of the people whose authority ultimately gives the law its force. The approach outlined, in detail, in the Dentons report amounts to a very different way of lobbying to get the laws and policies you want. Even more notably, it suggests that in several countries people have been quite successful in lobbying behind a ‘veil’ and in a way that deliberately avoids the attention of the public. That, I think, should interest anyone who cares about how politics and policy are conducted, whether or not they care about the transgender issue.

Yes. Great article from James.

Datun Mon 02-Dec-19 16:40:41

Bloody hell that Kirkup article.

You have to hand it to the women on mumsnet. And other feminists. They had this absolutely nailed and banged to rights from the very beginning.

From the report

"Against this background, many believe that public campaigning has been detrimental to progress, as much of the general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise."

Quick, close the damn curtains, there's too much sunlight.

Datun Mon 02-Dec-19 16:44:27

I mean, what nonsense. If you think the public is misinformed, bloody well inform them.

Oh wait...

RoyalCorgi Mon 02-Dec-19 16:50:11

Agree with Datun. And what's amazing about the Dentons report is that it is so upfront about using some very dubious Russian-style propaganda techniques to promote a dodgy agenda. It's almost as if someone has deliberately written a Machiavellian satire of the approach TRA groups are using.

littlbrowndog Mon 02-Dec-19 16:51:52

So what I understand from this. Is

Let’s keep it a secret ?

From us the public

eurochick Mon 02-Dec-19 17:14:15

As a lawyer I find it incredible that a law firm would put its name to a report that recommends how to make changes to the law avoiding proper scrutiny. Despite our image as "sharks" most lawyers are ethical and intelligent individuals. There is nothing ethical about what this report is recommending.

Well done rollonfriday for giving this some sunlight.

Shame on you, Dentons.

LangCleg Mon 02-Dec-19 17:25:31

You have to hand it to the women on mumsnet. And other feminists. They had this absolutely nailed and banged to rights from the very beginning.

Yep. I'm glad James is writing about institutional capture. And I feel for him: he's a nice, liberal middle class man who's decent and whose instincts are for kindness, and who clearly has trust in the British democratic tradition. I fear this has felt shocking to him. I'm immensely grateful he's prepared to interrogate all this without fear or favour.

Those of us way down on the social scale, however, have plenty of experience of the great and the good doing things TO us, not FOR us, and never considering they might require our consent. So we are not shocked.

Michelleoftheresistance Mon 02-Dec-19 17:36:19

I agree with his comment about what is done in the shadows won't survive in sunlight.

In a country where trust in democracy, politics and parties is at an all time low; where all parties have no idea what to do about Brexit with an increasingly angry general public; where much of the mess of Brexit came from the disengagement of politicians with the average person in the street...……….. do they really think dropping this on the general public as a fait accompli with the inevitable disasters that will follow (because you'd have to be bloody stupid or very very determined to avoid foreseeing them), is going to improve anything?

And that's before you look at how these policies throw into reverse many national policies, Local Authority targets, huge amounts of time and investment. It won't work. It won't work in very big way.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 02-Dec-19 17:37:21

Why did Denton's write this?

Procrastinator2 Mon 02-Dec-19 17:43:13

Eurochick The Law Society Gazette published a small announcement about the Denton's report and did not question the contents at all.

Kit19 Mon 02-Dec-19 17:47:34

I expect this guy probably has something to do with it

www.dentons.com/en/whats-different-about-dentons/connecting-you-to-talented-lawyers-around-the-globe/news/2019/october/dentons-partner-recognised-as-an-outstanding-lgbt-executive-role-model-for-second-year-in-a-row

Kit19 Mon 02-Dec-19 17:48:58

www.dentons.com/en/whats-different-about-dentons/connecting-you-to-talented-lawyers-around-the-globe/news/2019/january/stonewall-names-dentons-as-a-top-100-employer-for-fourth-consecutive-year-with-highest-ever-ranking

Kit19 Mon 02-Dec-19 17:52:29

And a special highlighting the t event

www.dentons.com/en/whats-different-about-dentons/connecting-you-to-talented-lawyers-around-the-globe/news/2018/may/glow-named-one-of-the-top-10-lgbt-network-groups-in-the-uk-at-the-british-lgbt-awards-2018

eurochick Mon 02-Dec-19 18:00:31

@Procrastinator2 could you clarify what point you are making. Sorry I'm not understanding.

If you are saying that publishing something about it in the Gazette is some sort of endorsement by lawyers in general then I don't agree. The Gazette is not well regarded in the profession but in any event they don't seem to have commented supporting the report. But perhaps your point is a different one.

somebrightmorning Mon 02-Dec-19 18:26:34

The involvement of the law firms is baffling.

15 years ago my gay colleague came out to me at our large law firm. Only 15 years ago. I think this has something to do with it. Also that fewer gay people have children compared to the average and that means no parental leave.... something quite attractive to the big firms.

Procrastinator2 Mon 02-Dec-19 18:28:30

Eurochick my point isn't that all solicitors are complicit or bad, just that, as poor as the journalist standards might be in the Gazette, you would have hoped the reporter would have picked up on the significance of Denton's report. If a trade mag for solicitors doesn't question, then what hope for the rest of the press? And since the Law Soc was collecting information by gender rather than sex perhaps they have already fallen which is concerning

somebrightmorning Mon 02-Dec-19 18:30:39

I think the Gazette is just the voice of the Law Society. It doesn’t do investigative journalism.

Clymene Mon 02-Dec-19 18:32:36

So a property legal specialist has put time, energy and money into a report about how best to covertly change national law. Wow, that really is quite something.

Dentons do not have a very good reputation (unsurprisingly it seems!)

Datun Mon 02-Dec-19 18:36:18

I don't really get it. What did they think would happen when this document was made public? Was it supposed to be kept under wraps?

It's so utterly damning. It's awful

somebrightmorning Mon 02-Dec-19 18:44:09

Very few people would have read it. Certainly no one with any real power in the firm. Probably just one rather junior partner and some trainees/paralegals.

I rather suspect a few more are reading it now though..... the firm has disgraced itself.

Floisme Mon 02-Dec-19 19:16:24

Yowsers.

Nothing else to add - just bumping.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 02-Dec-19 19:21:22

It's interesting that it was only published this month, I'm not quite sure if it's purpose given that it has already happened in the UK.

Also wondering who the UK NGO that wanted to remain anonymous is, and why they wanted to remain anonymous...

BarbaraStrozzi Mon 02-Dec-19 19:22:32

James Kirkup is on it for the Spectator!

twitter.com/jameskirkup/status/1201528681447002112

Excellent article.

SonicVersusGynaephobia Mon 02-Dec-19 20:13:13

I keep thinking "this is the moment/article where politicians wake up".

But they don't.

Why?! This is about as damning as it gets!

nauticant Mon 02-Dec-19 20:20:05

Cost benefit analysis. They'll only switch horses when they're sure that gets them onto a winner.

To be honest, which of us are, at this time, sure that the gender identity ideology won't win?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 02-Dec-19 20:49:57

Just saw this linked on Twitter

https://www.marketwatch.com/press-release/Sex-Reassignment-Surgery-Market-2018-In-Depth-Analysis-of-Industry-Share-Size-Growth-Outlook-up-to-2024-2019-01-26

Sex Reassignment Surgery Market will exceed USD 968 million by 2024; as per a new research report. Increase in number of gender reassignment surgical procedures across the world will drive the growth of sex reassignment surgery market. There has been an increase in the patients wanting to change their sex from male to female or vice versa, increasing nearly fourfold in the last decade.

A concerning number of transgender patients that have undergone gender reassignment surgeries have expressed regrets, suicidal thoughts and depression. Increase in number of sex change regret incidence will affect the growth of sex reassignment market as it will lead to decline in the number of people opting for surgical procedures

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 02-Dec-19 20:53:43

Oops wrong thread blush

mcduffy Mon 02-Dec-19 21:43:49

shock at all of this!
I do feel so much more positive now it's going mainstream.

ScrimshawTheSecond Mon 02-Dec-19 22:52:08

I think it's relevant anyway, ItsAllGoing.

Datun Tue 03-Dec-19 00:35:08

Sex Reassignment Surgery Market will exceed USD 968 million by 2024; as per a new research report. Increase in number of gender reassignment surgical procedures across the world will drive the growth of sex reassignment surgery market.

But here government and the tax payer pay. Which is why it's not leaping ahead at such a pace.

TimeLady Tue 03-Dec-19 01:31:13

The implications of Reuters' association with this is hard to take in. Are we seriously looking at a major respected international press agency actively advocating suppressing news to prevent reasoned discussion of proposed new laws? That's way bigger than Denton's involvement.

We've already seen the way it works with the BBC. Many people have long regarded the Beeb as an impartial source of accurate reporting (my DH still does) but my eyes have been well and truly opened by the number of important stories brought to our attention on FWR that never see the light of day. What they fail to report is just as influencial as what they do.
Remember the Challenor case? Barely a mention - as I seem to recall it was buried somewhere in the Coventry local news section.

That's what's as so chilling about this report; it's already happening

arethereanyusernamesleftatall Tue 03-Dec-19 02:05:37

Remember the Challenor case? Barely a mention - as I seem to recall it was buried somewhere in the Coventry local news section

Yes, that's right. David Challenor got 22 (or was it 23?) years for the kidnap and rape of a 10 year old girl in his his house which was listed as the Green party HQ in Cambridge - and the BBC ran it as local news.

Floisme Tue 03-Dec-19 07:13:23

It's 12 hours since I saw this and I'm still shock. I'm sure I remember a thread about a conference where there was discussion about changing laws by stealth, but to have the chutzpah to lay it all out in writing feels like a whole new level.
Thank goodness for James Kirkup.

BarbaraStrozzi Tue 03-Dec-19 07:14:27

Harry's judicial review got buried in the local news Lincolnshire section of the BBC website.

Backinthecloset123 Tue 03-Dec-19 07:31:30

It's exactly what happened here in NZ earlier this year. Our BDMRR (births deaths marriages relationship registration) bill had completed public consultation and was nearly finalised, then self i.d. was slipped in at that late stage. It almost went unnoticed.
Thankfully Speak Up For Woman was formed and managed to stop it going through. (Although we are basically self i.d. anyway now as far as women's spaces go).

It's so blatant. What a time to be alive. confused

TimeLady Tue 03-Dec-19 07:39:07

Aimee Challenor was also standing for deputy leader of the Greens at the time. Can you imagine any other politician getting off so lightly?

I'm starting to wonder how many employees are already clandestinely implementing these underhand tactics in the BBC, the Civil Service and other organisations.

Uncompromisingwoman Tue 03-Dec-19 10:00:25

This is as serious as it gets. A law firm and Reuters foundation promote an article that advocates the removal of parental rights / responsibilities and strips away the fundamental bedrock of safeguarding - the ability of parents to protect their children from influences that take advantage of a child's lack of ability to give informed consent.

Yet how on earth can ordinary parents stand up against such powerful vested interests targeting children like this? I despair.

clitherow Tue 03-Dec-19 10:06:23

This is as serious as it gets. A law firm and Reuters foundation promote an article that advocates the removal of parental rights / responsibilities and strips away the fundamental bedrock of safeguarding - the ability of parents to protect their children from influences that take advantage of a child's lack of ability to give informed consent.

And if this doesn't go some way to proving that there are forces afoot that want to isolate and strip the human being of everything that would protect them from being directly controlled by govt/corporate/bureaucratic power structures in the service of a particular ideology that incorporates but is not defined by the transgender issue, then I don't know what will.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 03-Dec-19 10:37:11

It describes how activists in Ireland "have directly lobbied individual politicians and tried to keep press coverage to a minimum in order to avoid this issue”.

www.lobbying.scot/SPS/LobbyingRegister/SearchLobbyingRegister

Searching for gender under purpose of lobbying is interesting.

TimeLady Tue 03-Dec-19 10:37:41

New CEO at Thomas Reuters' appointed this year

www.weforum.org/agenda/authors/antonio-zappulla/

Antonio is the founder of Openly, the world’s first global platform dedicated to coverage of LGBT+ stories with distribution to 1 billion Reuters clients daily.

In 2018, Antonio ranked first in the OUTstanding list of third sector LGBT executives published by the Financial Times. In 2017, he was named a European Young Leader by Friends of Europe. In 2016, he was awarded the Talented Young Italians Award by Italian Chamber of Commerce.

Antonio is a One Young World Ambassador and a World Economic Forum agenda contributor. He sits on the Board of OUT in Business at the London Business School.

One of the wokest of the woke

LangCleg Tue 03-Dec-19 10:55:17

And if this doesn't go some way to proving that there are forces afoot that want to isolate and strip the human being of everything that would protect them from being directly controlled by govt/corporate/bureaucratic power structures in the service of a particular ideology that incorporates but is not defined by the transgender issue, then I don't know what will.

Indeed. The new feudalism is genuinely around the next corner and we're still full of idiots going "but why can't you be nicer to the sad men?"

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Tue 03-Dec-19 11:02:10

god, this is astonishing. EVERYONE needs to read this

shock

GrinitchSpinach Tue 03-Dec-19 11:30:53

I hope Kirkup and other journalists really dig in to this. The document was prepared pro bono. Why? At whose request? Are there parallel strategic documents in other countries where institutional capture has taken place?

clitherow Tue 03-Dec-19 12:21:27

Do you know, I just can't believe it. It's like watching a car crash in slow motion, but this car is the size of a bloody planet.

BiologyIsReal Tue 03-Dec-19 14:43:05

And I was reading in other threads (not FWR) how sick some posters are of the concentration in FWR on the trans issue. If even other mumsnetters don't get/care what is going on, what hope is there?

nauticant Tue 03-Dec-19 14:53:15

If you know deep down there's something not right about your ideology, then you need to do two things: 1) stop others discussing it and 2) avoid explaining what you believe.

littlbrowndog Tue 03-Dec-19 14:57:46

Why are they hiding it.

They admit the public wouldn5 like it

What are they hiding from the public

Stripping away safeguarding from children

Aethelthryth Tue 03-Dec-19 15:06:30

Law firms seem to be falling over themselves es to ingratiate themselves with the trans lobby. Slaughter and May (yup, really) has posted on its Trainee Careers FB page its support for an event called "Trans in the City". I think they're all terrified of being blacklisted by some woke organisation with the result that applications for training contracts will dry up. These are organisations which bang on endlessly about the need to think critically and to stand one's ground in the face of a lack of logic; but they seem to be making a predictable exception

Kit19 Tue 03-Dec-19 15:20:35

Slaughter & May are far from the only ones

www.herbertsmithfreehills.com/news/herbert-smith-freehills-launches-ground-breaking-global-transitioning-guidelines-for

its makes me want to smash things that these kind of companies were lazy af in supporting equality for women, people from BAME communities and people with disabiities - its taken years to get inroads in the City for those groups but the trans agenda is fully accepted and promoted within what 3/4years?? how the hell did it happen?

nauticant Tue 03-Dec-19 15:28:27

For international law firms it's about them wanting to embed their brand into the middle of active areas of policy development, legislation, etc. Especially when it's those areas that have an aura of making the world a better place.

It's the equivalent of a tech company doing blue sky research in the hope of massive pay-offs in the future.

Aethelthryth Tue 03-Dec-19 15:46:08

Kit19
It may be because they can bang the woke/diverse/inclusive drum about trans questions without too much prospect of actually having to employ [m]any trans people.

Michelleoftheresistance Tue 03-Dec-19 16:07:56

these kind of companies were lazy af in supporting equality for women, people from BAME communities and people with disabiities - its taken years to get inroads in the City for those groups but the trans agenda is fully accepted and promoted within what 3/4years?? how the hell did it happen?

Isn't it amazing what the difference is when the group in question is by massive majority, male, white, straight, able bodied, affluent and educated?

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Tue 03-Dec-19 16:25:07

We’re basically just cannon fodder providing the next generation of cannon fodder to these people. What business do we have expecting to have any say in their decisions about our children?

The astonishing thing is we all know how shit the outcomes are for children where the state acts in loco parentis

Uncompromisingwoman Tue 03-Dec-19 16:38:00

Indeed Bernard. The state makes a terrible parent when children are pushed out or fall out of their families. You just have to look at all the reviews into abuse in children's homes etc.
Yet here are all these powerful, influential groups actively advocating to remove children from their parents and nobody gives a damn. No politicians, the powerful and influential, safeguarding charities paid £££ of public money, the police or the legal profession.

Everyone is standing back and silent while these groups openly propose the removal of a generation of children from their parents? Why isn't this the headline in every paper / news bulletin?

Clymene Tue 03-Dec-19 16:55:24

Isn't it amazing what the difference is when the group in question is by massive majority, male, white, straight, able bodied, affluent and educated?

Isn't it indeed?

And yes, who is going to look after all these children? Despite what some prominent people might say on Twitter, I suspect they don't actually want a glut of angst-ridden, emotionally fragile teenagers turning up on their doorstep.

And even if the State were any good at providing care (it isn't), it kicks kids out at 16 and, if they're lucky, gives them a bedsit and a couple of hundred quid. We are all collateral damage.

Uncompromisingwoman Tue 03-Dec-19 17:11:04

I'd like to get this thread pinned at the top of every board until people actually notice what is going on!!!

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 17:56:06

I hope Kirkup and other journalists really dig in to this. The document was prepared pro bono. Why? At whose request? Are there parallel strategic documents in other countries where institutional capture has taken place?

The entire thing is almost unbelievable. This lobby group have got a vice like grip on the entire apparatus of the state and they have done it with absolutely zero media or public scrutiny. It hasn’t happened over night, it must have been going on for years. Who the hell is funding this? Who are these people? It’s profoundly anti democratic. I hope the media does some relentless forensic investigation into this because it’s deeply sinister

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Tue 03-Dec-19 18:00:21

It is jaw dropping

I’d really like to see this in the national press

It would be super to see Denton’s defending this report

Clymene Tue 03-Dec-19 18:08:45

So, a summary. This is what IGLYO (an organisation funded by the EC and the Dutch government) advocate.
Good practice in national legal frameworks

1. Quick and affordable access to legal gender recognition based on the model of selfdetermination - no medical diagnosis or legal intervention, low cost, no requirement to 'live in acquired gender'

2. Extending the process to minors
"It is recognised that the requirement for parental consent or the consent of a legal guardian can be restrictive and problematic for minors."
However, they do also acknowledge that minors need additional support and care. Not at all clear what that means.

3. No requirement for sterilisation, surgical, medical treatment or diagnosis - think that doesn't need any further clarification. Exactly what it says.

4. Relationships should only be altered if favourable
"There should be no effects of altering one’s legal gender on marriage or succession. In addition, the individual should not be required to ask permission from their spouse.
As for parenthood, trans parents should be recognised in accordance with their legal gender identity in their children’s birth certificates. This should apply equally to parents who change their legal gender after having had children and parents who have children after having changed their legal gender."

So spouses do not have the right of veto.
Children can have their birth certificates altered after they have been born if their parent decides to change gender (they haven't really thought this whole 'rights of the child' thing through have they?)

5. Legal gender recognition at birth
The leading countries do not require children to be assigned a legal gender at birth (e.g. Malta, which allows intersex children to wait until they are 18 before declaring their legal gender). Such provisions should apply to all children.
Nice conflation of intersex with trans there.
And how does that work? If children are legally allowed to decide their gender when they're minors, are we now saying they should wait until they're 18? It's all a bit confused.com around here!

6. Recognition of a third gender - x marks the spot

7. Gender confirmation treatment should be available and reimbursable
"Gender confirmation treatment should be accessible and state-supported. 7. Gender confirmation treatment should be available and reimbursable
Gender confirmation treatment should be accessible and state-supported (or in certain circumstances, supplemented). It is crucial that there are no limitations to access this treatment such as the requirement to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria to have access to these treatments.

Hang on, I thought you didn't want any treatment? But if you do want treatment, it should just be because you say so. And the State should pay for it!

8. Established sanctions for breaching the law on gender recognition
"Finally, based on our research, the message that has come out strongly has been that the law on legal gender recognition should be binding upon public officials who apply it. A refusal to grant the requested legal gender should not be arbitrary and must be motivated by legitimate grounds specifically provided for by the law. More generally, any discrimination based on gender reassignment or gender identity should be prohibited. Any person who has been discriminated against should be able to file a complaint and
receive compensation."

If your parents won't let you be the gender you identify as, you should be able to sue them. And if your teacher accidentally calls you Emil rather than Emily, you'll sue them too! That'll learn em

Phew. Next lot of recommendations in next post.

TimeLady Tue 03-Dec-19 18:08:51

Why did Denton's publish it? Was it leaked?

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 18:09:13

Bernard,
I just can’t understand how this has happened. Who the hell are these people? How have they managed to colonise every aspect of the state while avoiding any scrutiny? They are trying to ram through policies that would never get public consent and criminalize any dissent. What the hell is going on?

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 18:15:01

I’m starting to wonder how many employees are already clandestinely implementing these underhand tactics in the BBC, the Civil Service and other organisations

I should think the BBC and the Civil Service have already been completely colonized. The regulatory capture is just off the charts

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 18:21:09

There must have been a lot of useful idiots who have allowed this to happen. I mean how large can this lobby group be? One would have thought that more people are in the animal rights movement but they haven’t managed lobbying on a scale anywhere near this. hmm

TimeLady Tue 03-Dec-19 18:23:18

I think one of the problems is that trustees and board members across charities and companies often seem to be interconnected and they will recruit others with similar views and objectives. I'm not sure how we break the cycle, other that through parliament putting a stop to this.

The sooner some cases for negligence come to court the better, but sadly that means there will have to be victims first

Clymene Tue 03-Dec-19 18:31:06

Next bit - this is the 'how to get governments to do what you want without anyone noticing' bit

Good practices for NGO advocacy

1. Target youth politicians - "activists found it useful to make the point that youth politicians are the senior politicians of the future and
that any changes that they are in favour of will inevitably be the policies of the future and are more likely
to be on “the right side of history”."

So - appeal to the vanity of older politicans by telling them that younger ones are totally on side yeah so that they can look down wiv da kidz

2. De-medicalise the campaign - make it clear that young people don't have to have surgery if they identify as transgender. Even though that is entirely the route that's advocated as best practice by advocacy organisations confused

3. Use case studies of real people
But not in the UK because we've cottoned on been a bit more aware of implications of legal change than other countries. "In the UK, the debate surrounding reform of legal gender recognition laws has been politically charged and trans people have suffered more hate crime than in previous years"
So women, campaigning for women's spaces to be upheld and protected, have caused trans people to be victims of hate crimes. I won't ask for evidence - Harry can provide that I'm sure!

4. Anonymise the narratives
Use fudged stories where you can dramatise things further.

5. Get ahead of the government agenda and the media story
Now this is the key. Advance guard under the cover of night, legislation by stealth.
"NGOs need to intervene early in the legislative process and ideally before it has even started. This will give them far greater ability to shape the government agenda." and if you don't get the media involved early enough "persistent negative and pernicious narratives about the trans rights agenda may take hold in the public
imagination which will negatively influence the legislative process and the prospects for success". That tactic was the plan with Trans Media Watch I believe although I'm not sure how successful it's been.

6. Use human rights as a campaign point
They don't know why this works, but it does. It could be because countries don't want to be accused of international wrong think.

7. Tie your campaign to more popular reform
Bang! The "veil of protection" wherein you slip in your controversial legislative change under the guise of a really popular one.

8. Avoid excessive press coverage and exposure
Lobby politicians directly. Do not attract attention. Do not let the public know what you're doing. Ever. Because they will thwart you

9. Carpe diem
Don't hang around if you spot an opportunity! Take advantage of political turmoil, windows of opportunity, to slide in changes to gender legislation without anyone noticing

10. Work together
Fot lots of reasons but "utimately gives greater legitimacy to a national campaign and maximizes the prospects of success."

11. Be wary of compromise
In Ireland, they've got self ID through but not for young people which is a terrible mistake because it's going to take years for them to change that.

That's it in terms of overall recommendations

Clymene Tue 03-Dec-19 18:36:35

In terms of why - I think a lot of people simply don't think this stuff through. I think they see a 'oh poor trans people' narrative, read the dodgy suicide stats (which are quoted at least three times in this document as far as I've read and I'm only 1/3 through) and also want to be 'down with the kids' (see point 1 in Good practices for Advocacy) above.

Plus I also think that most people don't really understand safeguarding. I certainly had a very vague understanding and hadn't really joined the dots until quite recently. Let's face it - this is a campaign chiefly driven by a) adults who don't have children and b) young people driven by Tumblr.

Until I had children of my own, I hadn't really thought about safeguarding ever. It had never been of concern or, I have to confess, of interest.

Sanddancer99 Tue 03-Dec-19 18:39:58

The Dentons report states the following: “..NGOs need to intervene early in the legislative process and ideally before it has even started. This will give them far greater ability to shape the government agenda and the ultimate proposal, than if they intervene after the government has already started to develop its own proposals.”
This tactic has been facilitated in the UK by the Government Equalities Office which has arranged for trans lobbyists to have preferential access to policy makers right across government, with the objective of influencing policy. This is show by the following extract from the GEO’s written submission to the House of Commons Women and Equalities Committee enquiry (2016) on transgender equality.
“GEO works across Government in order to influence and support other Government departments, bringing the voice of transgender people into Government policy-making. GEO seeks to help other Government departments understand the experience of transgender people so that policy can properly take into account the specific needs of transgender people. GEO also aims to facilitate dialogue between Government departments and transgender stakeholders so that stakeholders can directly access those responsible for the relevant policy...”
In order to ensure we understand the needs of transgender people and fully understand any associated issues, GEO maintains a regular dialogue with a wide range of stakeholders. GEO meets regularly with transgender stakeholders to discuss key issues of concern and the possible solutions to resolve those issues. In addition, the GEO engages through sector-wide fora, which have representation from transgender organisations, to identify and clarify the key issues of concern.”

Giving lobbyists preferential access to policy makers, and excluding other groups that could be impacted by those policies, is a recipe for policy capture. Any civil servant (or regulator) should know this.

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 18:45:09

Target youth politicians, human rights, hate crime, get ahead of the government agenda. This sinister lobby group have managed to colonise state institutions and NGOs so quickly because of the craven posturing of politicos who have failed to defend freedom of speech and thought. They have managed to present themselves as the very apex of a hierarchy of oppression whilst infiltrating every aspect of state power. Including the police!

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 18:50:49

Another poster up thread mentioned law firms are frightened of being on the receiving end of a Twitter tirade. That has been another successful tactic. Trawling social media and stamping on anyone who questions this insanity. Bullying is at the core of this and people are too frightened to speak out. It’s just unbelievable

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 18:58:12

This tactic has been facilitated in the UK by the Government Equalities Office which has arranged for trans lobbyists to have preferential access to policy makers right across government

Profoundly anti democratic. The more I read about this, the more contempt I feel for the utterly useless, craven politicians who have pandered to this.

Kit19 Tue 03-Dec-19 19:00:57

I know someone who had to work with an internal trans group as part of their job. They said it was relentless - whereas when people normally disagree at work there are rules, with this group they went nuclear straight away. There was no compromise, no finding common ground. They were bombarded with emails, meetings were very aggressive, & left endless voice mails. In the end it just became easier to say yes than to fight especially as their organisation just wanted it to go away.

LangCleg Tue 03-Dec-19 19:03:46

And this is all complicated by the blurring between charities (doing precious little actual charity work) and lobbying.

The entire Third Sector Industrial Complex needs to go. The Charity Commission needs beefing up and charities not spending the bulk of their income on actual services for their constituencies need to have charitable status revoked.

Lobbying is a £2 billion a year industry. It should be nowhere near charitable status.

Uncompromisingwoman Tue 03-Dec-19 19:05:20

Using the Government Equalities Office and the EHRC as 'enforcers' of this is a genius move. With the Civil service as the useful idiots who ensure that the ideology is present absolutely everywhere that government touches alongside a sizeable dose of bullying of anyone who fails to conform.
Does anyone remember that chilling thread from a woman civil servant about a training session where a woman was publicly criticised for walking back out out of a toilet that a transgender woman was in? I recall women were given advice about the correct facial expression and behaviour to adopt. Coercive control writ large

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 19:09:35

with this group they went nuclear straight away. There was no compromise, no finding common ground. They were bombarded with emails, meetings were very aggressive, & left endless voice mails. In the end it just became easier to say yes

This is because they are bullies and it’s a tactic they use to bulldoze through. But it is the environment which enables this, and it’s an environment where it is becoming impossible to acknowledge objective reality. It’s actually very frightening

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 19:18:47

I recall women were given advice about the correct facial expression and behaviour to adopt. Coercive control writ large

Blimey, I had not heard of that. It’s just outrageous. Who the hell are these people? What is their ultimate agenda? They seem to have colonised most Western countries and did I read on this board that Mexico is introducing self ID? Mexico? hmm

Clymene Tue 03-Dec-19 19:25:50

Catholic counties are big on self ID. It is no accident that Malta and Ireland are the first European countries to introduce it.

They abhor homosexuality and aren't that keen on women so can't imagine any man would seriously want to be one.

Goosefoot Tue 03-Dec-19 19:31:16

6. Use human rights as a campaign point They don't know why this works, but it does. It could be because countries don't want to be accused of international wrong think.

I've seen this in a many different types of campaigns. Rather than try and make the social case for something, the idea is to somehow present it as a rights violation, and that will convince some people right away. If you can convince enough of the right ones then you may even be able to get it dealt with through the court system.

The key is to somehow define your group as one that exists as a sort of natural entity, some sort of defined group with a particular characteristic. At that point then you can claim that something is excluding you or discrimination against that characteristic.

BovaryX Tue 03-Dec-19 19:31:58

Clymene, that’s an interesting take on it. It’s such a regressive doctrine

TimeLady Tue 03-Dec-19 19:41:06

The parliamentary select committee has already jumped the gun

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/role/

The Women and Equalities Committee was appointed by the House of Commons on 3 June 2015 to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of the Government Equalities Office (GEO).

The Committee fills "a gap" in previous accountability arrangements - the Minister for Women and Equalities and the GEO will now be held to account by a select committee for the Government's performance on equalities (sex, age, race, religion or belief, sexual orientation, disability, gender identity, pregnancy and maternity, marriage or civil partnership status) issues. The Committee joins more than thirty Parliaments worldwide with dedicated equalities committees.

The creation of an Equalities Committee was recommended by the All Party Parliamentary Group on Women in Parliament in their July 2014 report on Improving Parliament: Creating a better and more representative House (PDF 3.8 MB).

I have complained. Perhaps others might like to do so too?

Michelleoftheresistance Tue 03-Dec-19 19:44:09

this group they went nuclear straight away. There was no compromise, no finding common ground. They were bombarded with emails, meetings were very aggressive, & left endless voice mails. In the end it just became easier to say yes than to fight

There were some detailed discussions on the relationship boards a few years ago about how certain personality disorders were leading to LAs and agencies being massively and disproportionately tied up by a few service users.

Typical behaviour (and I witnessed this in a previous job) was to send long, endless emails, often multiple per day. Multiple phone calls, often the same issue taken to several people one after the other with no mention they'd already had the conversation, so multiple hares started in different directions. Involved and initiated multiple complaints, often having several running at the same time, to insist on top manager level dealing with them and not speaking to anyone lower, or fixing on one particular member of staff and bombarding them with engagement, multiple bullet pointed issues they wanted replies to, chasing and demanding responses immediately. Endless threats of legal involvement or punishment, lots of meetings where largely the point was to shout at and lecture everyone at length without allowing anyone to speak (often on issues that weren't issues at all or had been solved).

It frequently results in members of staff going off ill with stress, and huge amounts of time, money and resources being poured onto trying to deal with these people as if they were reasonable people . It didn't work. Because for those few service users, the satisfaction and reward was in the behaviour and the reaction/engagement of others. It was often framed as a crusade, as brave people fighting the system, but was actually often no substance and a lot of enjoyment of drama, fights and attention of people trying to soothe, placate, listen and help.

There was one agency who had drawn up processes to identify a vexatious complainant (basically the signs of this client type) and after exhausting two rounds of normal process to prove clearly it was vexatious, then adopt a different system of handling person and complaint which shut down the complaint and refused further engagement.

LAs and all systems need training and systems in this. The behaviour needs to be recognised and separated out from genuine issues and process: as the relationships board often says, you cannot solve a problem by being reasonable with someone incapable of being reasonable. Agencies need boundaries. And to learn how to say no, and stand up to people being sad, angry, critical, without becoming panicked.

Anyone interested in this: take a look at the Issendai blog, she often deconstructs this dynamic and points out why engagement turns out to be pointless.

Kit19 Tue 03-Dec-19 19:50:57

@michelleoftheresistance

Oh god that sounds soooo familiar from another job I had and yes! Those are the exact tactics and it is 100% predicated on the ‘other side’ responding in a ‘reasonable’ way rather than fighting fire with fire.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Tue 03-Dec-19 20:40:30

Just going to add a thread in here, it's about gender recognition for 16/17 year olds in Ireland. Amnesty International put out a statement and in part of it they raise concerns about the parental consent that's needed.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3758764-Gender-recognition-process-to-be-simplified-for-teenagers-in-Ireland

theflushedzebra Tue 03-Dec-19 21:13:03

This is... horrifying.

I mean, we knew something along these lines was happening, didn't we? But to see it - written out like that - as a policy document.

Proof that the public at large is not behind these law changes - proof that they are being pushed through on the sly.

And proof that the feminists in the UK have done a fantastic job in getting this out in the open! In fact, every single one of us - who have done anything to raise awareness, signed a petition, donated to a crowdfunder, written to our MP, posted on social media - have all helped.

PROOF that the silencing of women was a deliberate strategy.

Sanddancer99 Tue 03-Dec-19 23:02:23

Policy makers and regulators are subject to the Seven Principles of Public Life (Nolan Principles). These principles are very important to a democratic society and they are not optional. One of the reasons why these principles exist is to avoid policy and regulatory capture.
According to these principles policy makers and regulators must act and take decisions impartially, using the best evidence and without discrimination or bias. There should also be a level playing field for all the stakeholders that could be impacted by policy and regulatory decisions. The principles also require policy makers and regulators to be accountable and transparent about their decisions and actions. This includes accountability to the public.
The “behind closed doors” approach to policy making is in serious contravention with the Nolan Principles. Its results in the wider implications of policy being missed. It results in the unquestioning acceptance of biased data from lobby groups. It results in totally inadequate (or non-existent) research in support of policy. Its results in failure to carry out equality impact assessments in contravention with the PSED. It results in the human rights of women and girls being ignored. It results in attempts to drive through policies without any accountability or transparency. This all contributes to a lack of public confidence in government (and regulators).
The huge public backlash about the GRA consultation, and about the current flaunting of the Equality Act, is not due to transphobia as TRA claim. It is a direct consequence of the total failure of policy makers to comply with the Nolan Principles.

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