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Does MN have a problem with trans people? **MNHQ edited title as OP has apologised for 'accusatory' tone**

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MNHQ have commented on this thread.

tryandempathise Wed 27-Nov-19 07:54:20

Seem to be threads constantly on the issue of trans.

Why?

Is it because it conflicts with the idea of sex as a construct?

Is it an age thing?

There must be mums on here with trans kids - do you just stay out of it?

Why the obsession with the idea of being attacked by trans women? Is it not the modern equivalent of homophobic blokes all thinking gay men want to rape them?

TheProdigalKittensReturn Wed 27-Nov-19 10:25:48

Damn you and your earworm planting evilness!

OP apparently decided to namechange and is in the thread, Gangrene, as lemon something.

DuMondeB Wed 27-Nov-19 10:26:00

If you are really interested in sport and transwomen, then listen to Noel Plum’s videos - he’s made multiple across two channels and covers intersex conditions as well.
He explains the concept of ‘advantage’ very well, using Oscar Pistorius as an example (ie, being a double amputee is not an ‘advantage’ when it comes to track running, but his running blades are more effective than natural human legs. This equals a sporting advantage. In transwomen, the advantage is having had a male puberty and the question is whether testosterone suppression for one year is enough to cancel out that advantage. Spoiler, according to all research so far, it isn’t).

Here are two of my favourite videos of his, but they form part of a playlist.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwFZBG_ts4k&list=PLl8YBXeamXSLyIeD3qdGVrxvSHQ-lLM7O&index=6&t=0s

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsqfoEr4zQM&list=PLl8YBXeamXSLyIeD3qdGVrxvSHQ-lLM7O&index=4

I don’t like the language Plum uses (‘cis’) but there is no doubt he has a much better handle on the actual science than most.

His solution is to rename the two categories ‘open’ and ‘female’ and to make a male puberty the disqualifier for the ‘female’ category (this would allow for XY intersex athletes like Dutee Chand and disallow XY intersex athletes like Caster Semenya).
My only concern is as to whether the unintended consequence of this rule will encouraging paediatric transition and/or prioritising medical intervention in intersex athletes motivated by ‘sports sex’, rather than long term health.

Puberty blockers are bad for bone health though, so the likelihood of elite athleticism after an induced cross-sex ‘puberty’ is pretty ludicrous, currently, at least.

BertrandRussell Wed 27-Nov-19 10:27:21

“ So rather than having surgery / hormone replacement, trans people should have therapy? Genuinely asking.”
Not rather than. But certainly the first step. As with any other dysphoria. Genuinely answering.

Wtfdoipick Wed 27-Nov-19 10:31:49

If women can not define what it feels like to be a woman because we just are, how can someone male?

TWAW does not work for me because I don't feel like a woman, I am female due to biology but I'm not feminine.

I want to be able to choose spaces which exclude male born people when I am in a vulnerable position, I want other female born people to have that choice because to me the sex is important. Don't give a hoot what gender people are, identify as a push me pull me for all I care but sex baxed rights are needed and have nothing to do with gender.

bluebluezoo Wed 27-Nov-19 10:34:46

There is no "trans hate"

People can wear what they want, style their hair how they want, wear make up if they want. Doesn't make me hate them.

If we removed the prescriptive definitions of "male" and "female" (boys play with trucks, girls dolls, women wear heels and makeup, men like sport and beer) and let everyone do what the fuck they wanted to or follow their own interests then there'd be no need for "trans" at all.

fwiw I now identify as "gender free" as all this trans stuff has made me realise I don't "feel" like a woman. I generally don't fit the female stereotype- i wear trousers, have short hair and don't wear make up or jewellery, but I am not a man. I don't feel like a man, but I do like maths and science. So where does that leave me? I don't behave in a way that would fit either gender. I am female sex though.

what people think is "trans hate" on this site are women simply questioning the reality. Personally I think trans folk should be allowed to behave how they want, but they are still biologically the sex they were born. Also that anyone going down the medical transition route should be required to have psychological assessment before they start irreversibly changing their body. Currently it seems to be a few hormones, chop a bit off here and there, and hey presto, you're a woman. It doesn't work like that, and is major surgery with major side effects.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 10:35:56

Dick (can I call you that?) my thoughts on gender have changed because of the trans stuff. To understand why someone would transition I've started to think that there must be some sense of gender but I just can't feel it because there's no conflict there, for me it's just my life and it feels right so I don't notice it and I can't describe it because I don't know anything else. Because why else would someone do such an extreme thing?
Before I was aware of gender dysphoria I thought of gender as a way to separate men and women and make generalisations about both, always to the detriment of women.

bluebluezoo Wed 27-Nov-19 10:40:43

oh and Rachel Mckinnon is no more than an average cyclist. Which is why women can beat them. They are" successful" in womens cycling- (and it's "age group" races, not elite they are competing- so competing against women their own age, rather than an open category) purely because they have male size and strength rather than athletic talent.

My husband is a marathon runner- He might win some age group marathons if he competed as a woman, but would still get trounced by the elite women in the london marathon.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Wed 27-Nov-19 10:41:35

Also that anyone going down the medical transition route should be required to have psychological assessment before they start irreversibly changing their body.

I would add that this psychological assessment period should begin when full adult maturity is reached in the mid 20s. Children and young adults should be given every opportunity to desist and not funnelled on to trans pathways by, for example the use of affirmation therapy or social transitioning. Desistance should always be viewed as the best outcome.

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 10:51:38

grin I keep meaning to name change again but I quite like this one!

To understand why someone would transition I've started to think that there must be some sense of gender but I just can't feel it because there's no conflict there, for me it's just my life and it feels right so I don't notice it and I can't describe it because I don't know anything else. Because why else would someone do such an extreme thing?
Before I was aware of gender dysphoria I thought of gender as a way to separate men and women and make generalisations about both, always to the detriment of women.

I see gender similarly. But tales of transitioners, and of children who are suffering from GD, often involves those exact same stereotypes. I've never identified with female stereotypes.

When I say I'm technically trans, I'm being serious because by many of the definitions, including Stonewall who consider themselves the authority, I am. I wouldn't call my issues gender dysphoria but I know that feeling of conflict and feeling like your mind doesn't match your body. But I know I'm a woman.

The only thing that has come close to bringing me peace with my body was breastfeeding. That's womanly. And feminine. And whilst my body may be changed forever I didn't have to have any body parts removed to do it. Luckily, this wasn't a thing when I was a teenager otherwise maybe I would have removed my breasts.

Anyway, I've probably missed another ton of posts merailing so I'll stop now! TL

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 10:52:02

(shortest TL;DR ever that one!)

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 10:53:23

By the way that's a yes, you can call me whatever you want. Apart from c*s, obviously grin

wrongsideofhistorymyarse Wed 27-Nov-19 10:55:23

Not anti-trans, but pro-woman.

TalkingintheDark Wed 27-Nov-19 11:03:39

I give trans women the benefit of the doubt and class them as women

But what is a woman? How do you define “woman” (and I don’t mean circular definitions such as “someone who identifies as a woman”)?

What are the defining characteristics of women that set us apart from other adult human beings, ie men? What is it exactly that all women and all biologically male trans people have in common that is not shared by the remaining biologically male people?

My definition of woman is simply a human being who has reached adulthood and is female - of the sex that produces large, immotile gametes (ova) and bears young. (Obviously it is possible to be of the female sex and not produce ova or bear young; women with DSDs, infertility issues, childless and post-menopausal women are clearly still of the female sex.)

My understanding is that that is the ONLY thing that all woman have in common. A shared biology. A biology that might include variations but specifically excludes male sexual reproductive organs. Because male is by definition not female.

What else is it you think all women share? And that biologically male trans people all share too? And biologically male people who don’t identify as trans don’t? Can you name that specific thing?

midcenturylegs Wed 27-Nov-19 11:06:29

*gangrene" OP confessed to being Lemon, which was obvious to me all along.
I'm heading down south for a quick trip to Bunbury to buy some nice wine

FloralBunting Wed 27-Nov-19 11:08:01

lemon, so, even though you do not feel the mystical gender feelings, you have concluded that they must exist because trans people insist they do, and trans people often do very extreme things based on those feelings?

Do you take the same approach to other unprovable, indefinable things which others believe in very strongly, like spiritual souls, or heaven and hell?

DodoPatrol Wed 27-Nov-19 11:11:42

McKinnon isn't trouncing the female opposition despite all the advantages of a male frame, male heart size, male lung capacity and legacy of male puberty on muscle strength, because McKinnon is not very good.

Funnily enough, despite wafting around pinkly on radio saying that there ARE no advantages of being male in a female competition, McKinnon doesn't seem keen to go and join an open competition.

Right: toilets. Current example from my own child's school. They have a (very newly declared) trans-girl. They also have a girl in the same year who has been raped and is understandably traumatised by it.

Should the school be 'kind' to the trans-girl and let that child use the supposedly all-female facilities? Or should the traumatised girl be allowed to have the small comfort of knowing that she never need expect to find a boy (as she knew him to be last week or last month or last year) in the girls' loos?

Nobody hates the trans-girl. Nobody is expecting that particular child to be a physical risk to the girls. But he has an undeniably male body and male voice, being, y'know, male. Should the girls 'get over it'?

If so - why?

bluebluezoo Wed 27-Nov-19 11:13:18

When I say I'm technically trans, I'm being serious because by many of the definitions, including Stonewall who consider themselves the authority, I am. I wouldn't call my issues gender dysphoria but I know that feeling of conflict and feeling like your mind doesn't match your body. But I know I'm a woman

This. My gender doesn't match my sex. I like maths and science, sport, I have no interest in fashion, nails or eyebrows, never liked dolls, not particularly interested in socialising or children.

Common sense has always told me I'm a girl who likes the above. Who has escaped the conditioning to like certain things and dismiss "boy' things. Who had the chance to develop her own interests without gender confirmation.

The likes of stonewall et al are telling me i have a "male brain". I don't behave like a woman, being a woman is all about social presentation and what you like and dislike.

If I were a man who liked make up, I'd be Robert Smith or Marilyn. Not any more, I'm a woman because I like make up.

Basically it's your external appearance that makes you a man or a woman.

Gangrenethatmightwork Wed 27-Nov-19 11:16:36

Yeah sorry, I just did a quick scroll for OPs highlighted posts and then posted before I even checked if OP had come back with a name change - how rude of me and I've been shown up!

@lemonsqueasy if you weren't even aware of gender dysphoria then you have some reading to do. The explosion of trans issues is not due to an increase in gender dysphoria in males. In females it might be but is a social contagion much like repressed memories.
And even those who have gender dysphoria won't necessarily be cured by surgery which is painful and risky, I suggest you read what this entails especially for FTM.
Therapy should absolutely be the main step to use as we do not give people unnecessary surgeries for body dysmorphia by cutting their leg off, that would be unethical. So why are sexual organs different?
Gender does exist socially to the detriment of women, and gender identity plays into that. Why can't people who want to wear dresses just wear them without being cut up? There isn't anything wrong with them.
But the fear women have on here is the men who aren't trans and can waltz into a toilet or changing room (dressed as a woman or man) say they feel female and get to women at their most vulnerable.
There have been lots of incidents of this and we have segregated toilets/changing rooms/wards for a reason.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 11:16:38

Floral that's a very good point

BertrandRussell Wed 27-Nov-19 11:18:53

I think it’s I teraribg that the debate always comes back to loos. Because it is perfectly possible to make a good case for gender neutral loos. I don’t personally agree with it, but is is possible to make.
The discussion always seems to slide round the more difficult things- like sport. Or whether lesbians are allowed not to want to date transwomen. Or whether racists with functioning penises should be housed in women’s prisons. Or whether people with functioning penises should be allowed in women’s refuges.

LittleMissBrainy Wed 27-Nov-19 11:21:11

For me, it's about privilege that trans women have, but don't acknowledge as they're always insisting they're oppressed. The reason you only get trans women in 1st world countries? Because they're privileged to be able to identify the way they want to.
Malala Yousafzai was not shot in the head because she 'identified' as being a girl. She was shot because she IS a girl. I'm pretty sure if she had told the Taliban soldiers she identified as a boy, she still would have been shot, because her oppressors say her biology does not deserve an education. No trans woman activist ever acknowledges that in most countries of the world, biological reality is just that, and it is not possible to identify in or out of it.

DodoPatrol Wed 27-Nov-19 11:23:35

Sorry to drag it to loos once again, Bertrand, but that's the example at the forefront of my mind at the moment.

If this particular male child wants to use the girl's loos -- should he, to validate his sense of girlhood, even though it's to the definite detriment of at least one girl there?

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 11:23:59

What was the bbc thing referred to earlier?

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Wed 27-Nov-19 11:30:44

To understand why someone would transition I've started to think that there must be some sense of gender but I just can't feel it because there's no conflict there

you've never experienced any shitty sexism due to being female? because that is a conflict between your expectations and society's expectations based on the gender it has assigned to you

HopeMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 27-Nov-19 11:31:49

Hi all,
Thanks for the reports about this thread.
It seems to be quite a useful one so in light of the OP's post saying "I don't disagree about the concern over kids and the shared spaces. Thanks for the explanations & sorry for my accusatory language in the thread title" we have amended the title and will now go through the thread.
The intention when moderating is, as ever, to prioritise civility and constructiveness. (Wish us luck!)

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