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Does MN have a problem with trans people? **MNHQ edited title as OP has apologised for 'accusatory' tone**

(849 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

tryandempathise Wed 27-Nov-19 07:54:20

Seem to be threads constantly on the issue of trans.

Why?

Is it because it conflicts with the idea of sex as a construct?

Is it an age thing?

There must be mums on here with trans kids - do you just stay out of it?

Why the obsession with the idea of being attacked by trans women? Is it not the modern equivalent of homophobic blokes all thinking gay men want to rape them?

Trewser Wed 27-Nov-19 07:55:42

biscuit

TinselAngel Wed 27-Nov-19 07:56:45

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

TyroSaysMeow Wed 27-Nov-19 07:57:27

Haven't seen much hate for trans people here.

Genderist ideology, on the other hand...

Angryresister Wed 27-Nov-19 07:59:01

There are plenty of threads here talking about the reasons why some of us are worried about the view that TWAW just because they say are. Please read them , as women here are well informed

TyroSaysMeow Wed 27-Nov-19 07:59:33

Wait, I tell a lie - I've expressed hate for one trans person. Who raped me. We're allowed to hate rapists, right?

SpartacusAutisticus Wed 27-Nov-19 07:59:48

Sex isn't a construct.

HTH.

BadgertheBodger Wed 27-Nov-19 08:00:01

Good morning tryandempathise!

Can you outline more about why you think MN “hates” trans people? It’s a frankly outrageous statement which shows you’ve come over from some other place on the internet for the purpose of telling us silly old mummies off apparently without reading a single thread

An interesting first post on MN

NutRoastNancy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:00:19

Mumsnet does not hate trans people in my experience. The erasure if women’s rights is another matter.

FloralBunting Wed 27-Nov-19 08:01:08

1) sex isn't a construct.
2) lots of parents with kids caught up in the cult, yes.
3) this is the feminism board, concerned about male violence and privilege, whatever trans status they have.

HTH.

Ffsnosexallowed Wed 27-Nov-19 08:01:47

Sex isn't a construct, it's a biological reality. Gender is a construct.

QuentinWinters Wed 27-Nov-19 08:02:02

Why the obsession with the idea of being attacked by trans women?

Most feminists do think about male violence because it is a huge systematic problem affecting many many women. Why would transitioning stop a male being violent?

TheProdigalKittensReturn Wed 27-Nov-19 08:02:51

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DeeZastris Wed 27-Nov-19 08:05:02

If you see anything transphobic then please do report and the moderators will delete. HTH.

Coldwatershock Wed 27-Nov-19 08:06:38

Nice try OP

WorkingItOutAsIGo Wed 27-Nov-19 08:06:53

I have no particular concern about being attacked by transwomen.

My concern is if we open up women’s safe spaces to any man who wants to be in them (because once you allow self ID that is effectively what you are doing) then women will be at increased risk. It’s not transwomen I am concerned about. It’s the men who follow in their wake. Because the men who take advantage will be the rapists and abusers. The transwomen are the innocent Trojan Horse if you will let me muddle an anecdote.

I have long accepted transsexual women in my spaces and support everyone in living however they want.

HandsOffMyRights Wed 27-Nov-19 08:06:58

Your post is agesit and sexist OP.
Not to mention goady.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:07:31

I NC cos I knew there would be some vitriol.

I did try to search for this subject but didn't find anything under transphobia

WorkingItOutAsIGo Wed 27-Nov-19 08:08:02

Also sorry had to dash as Aunt Bunbury called and needs my Madeira cake recipe.

SlipperyLizard Wed 27-Nov-19 08:08:31

Sex isn’t a construct, gender is. Our sex is our biological reality and the reason for our oppression the world over and throughout history.

The idea that being a woman is simply a feeling in our heads is deeply offensive to me and many women.

We don’t hate trans people, we just understand that human beings can’t change sex and that women’s sex-based rights are important and must be maintained.

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 08:10:47

Seem to be threads constantly on the issue of trans.

Why?

Someone has already linked to a really helpful thread but one of the reasons there are lots of threads here is because on other platforms discussions regarding women's rights are shut down.

Also, as news stories reach the mainstream, there are often people new to the debate turning up.

Is it because it conflicts with the idea of sex as a construct?

I don't understand this question. Sex is not a construct.

Is it an age thing?

No, there are women (and some men) of a range of ages here. Do you think it's an age thing?

Why the obsession with the idea of being attacked by trans women? Is it not the modern equivalent of homophobic blokes all thinking gay men want to rape them?

No, it's not. I don't think anyone here is 'obsessed' with the idea of being attacked by transwomen. confused Some women have been attacked by people who identify as transwomen which does get discussed but so do lots of other topic, such as medical experiments on children.

I hope that answers some of your questions.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:12:36

Most feminists do think about male violence because it is a huge systematic problem affecting many many women. Why would transitioning stop a male being violent?

I see the issue then, it's that you don't believe that a person can be trans?

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 08:12:44

And, TBF, most of us are technically trans, by Stonewall's definitions.

It would be a bit silly if we hated ourselves!

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 08:13:20

What does it mean to be trans, to you?

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:14:28

Thanks @DickKerrLadies

Yeah I meant gender when I said sex.
I'll read the other thread and be back if I still think you're all wrong.

Sadiesnakes Wed 27-Nov-19 08:14:42

biscuit

HorseWithNoFucksToGive Wed 27-Nov-19 08:16:04

I love the smell of (straw man) bollocks in the morning.

birdsdestiny Wed 27-Nov-19 08:16:13

Have the recent newsnight and radio 4 programmes worried people maybe?

BertrandRussell Wed 27-Nov-19 08:17:21

I don’t hate transpeople. And I don’t think I am going to be attacked by one.
I think there are issues with trans women being considered exactly the same as natal women in some very specific areas. I am happy to say more. @tryandempathise if you would like me to.

Branleuse Wed 27-Nov-19 08:17:24

i dont think mumnset does hate trans people, but there is robust debate on the feminism board about gender ideology and whether it overrides biological reality etc, transwomen in womens spaces/sports/all-women shortlists etc. I think youd expect this really as its clearly a pressing womens issue overwhelmingly

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:17:36

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HorseWithNoFucksToGive Wed 27-Nov-19 08:19:10

Yes Birds. Cages have been rattled.

NotTerfNorCis Wed 27-Nov-19 08:19:14

you don't believe that a person can be trans?

Personally I don't believe in male-bodied people with a 'female brain'.

There is plenty of evidence that transwomen retain male behavioural traits after transition.

Also, as someone else pointed out, 'self id' is guaranteed to be exploited by some predatory males who don't really believe they are women.

MrsKCastle Wed 27-Nov-19 08:20:17

Of course people can be trans. According to Stonewall, many of us here on FWR are trans.

What we don't tend to believe is that a person in a male body is 'actually' 'really' female. Because that involves ignoring biological sex and believing in ladybrain.

MIdgebabe Wed 27-Nov-19 08:20:34

I think op may be saying that a true trans person would lose / never have had male traits and only false claiming to be trans persons would keep male traits like propensity to violence

This then begs the question ...is a man a man if he lives his whole life without committing any male trait actions or was he also trans without realising it

Also then mean a true trans person will never detransistion

I think that is an hateful position to take. I know transwomen who are aware they keep Male traits, have benefitted from their maleness in their lives yet I would never consider them to be falsely trans. At least one has had severe mental health problems trying to cope with and understand the nature of their being. I actually take. Their honesty about their Male aspects as evidence of how well they have socialised into womanhood. They know it's relevent to women. They understand that.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:22:17

And what are your thoughts on trans men? Or less important because they're not a threat to women?

Twooter Wed 27-Nov-19 08:22:35

I would be heartbroken for my children if they were unable to have children. The head of Mermaids is pushing infertility on confused teens.

iguanadonna Wed 27-Nov-19 08:22:35

Women can lose their jobs if they talk about their bodies and what it means to be female. A lot of internet sites shut down any discussion of the difference between sex and gender. So it's here anonymous feminist talk happens.

Twooter Wed 27-Nov-19 08:23:16

... having helped her own child get neutered at 16years old.

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 08:27:19

Yeah I meant gender when I said sex.

Ah ok. That makes much more sense - it's a bit early for me!

WRT 'believing a person can be trans', it depends what you mean by trans, as the word has a very wide definition now.

There are people who suffer from gender dysphoria, sometimes to the extent that those people want to make radical changes to their bodies. Some may choose to take cross-sex hormones, some may choose to get surgery on their breasts/chest, a few choose to get genital surgery.

These treatments aren't risk-free, and aren't always successful in stopping the dysphoria. There may be other mental health issues at hand. But, for the most part, we accept that adults have the right to do whatever they want to their own bodies (apart from conditions such as anorexia, or that tattooist/body modifier who went to court for splitting someone's tongue even though they wanted it done).

One of the hot topics here is the medicalisation and subsequent sterilisation of children, sometimes pre-puberty, who appear to be suffering from gender dysphoria (I say appear to be because I do think there are other issues at play in at least some of these children.

But aside from those suffering from gender dysphoria, trans also includes people who only 'identify' as the other sex and make no changes to their appearance. It includes men who identify as male one day and female another. And others.

I have to go now but I'll be back later!

tooyoungat40 Wed 27-Nov-19 08:27:20

I don't hate trans people anymore than I hate people with blue eyes. I don't think that their rights should trump those of biological women.

It's disingenuous to equate protection of women's rights with hatred of trans people.

But nice try OP

MrsKCastle Wed 27-Nov-19 08:28:32

And what are your thoughts on trans men? Or less important because they're not a threat to women?

Transmen - or more precisely females being accepted into male spaces - don't impact on women's rights in the same way.

However, many of us are very concerned about the amount of young females who are identifying as men. And the detransitioners who are speaking out.

IfWishesWereFishes Wed 27-Nov-19 08:31:09

I have no concerns about trans people.

I have huge and overwhelming concerns about self ID and the men who will use that to get into women's spaces to do them harm. As they already do.

I have concerns that two sets of rights seem to he pitted at odds with one another, and not by women: women's rights and trans rights. Apparently only one of these is also human rights. hmm

BertrandRussell Wed 27-Nov-19 08:32:25

The issue of transmen is interesting. There seem to be very few of them wanting to go into male prisons, or compete in men’s sport or wanting their crimes to be recorded on the male statistics. I have been hoping that a trans boy would apply for, say, Eton, to see what would happen.

Branleuse Wed 27-Nov-19 08:34:44

why is it that now if we disagree with someones beliefs or ideology, we now apparently hate that person or have a phobia?
Its the blasphemy laws all over again.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Wed 27-Nov-19 08:36:41

The hint is in the name- mumsnet.

Most posters on a site called mumsnet are going to be mothers.

Mothers tend to be concerned about children. Of course they are going to talk about an ideology, which has no credible evidence to support it, which threatens the physical and psychological health of children, which removes safeguards put in place to protect them from harm and from predatory behaviours.

Thanks at least in part to the mothers (and other women and some men) who frequent these boards the mainstream media is slowly waking up to the horrors of this ideology.

Even the BBC, wokeville central, has this week highlighted the damage being done to vulnerable children and young people. Has started to ask proper questions of the Tavistock clinic, of their lack of research, of their failure to explore comorbidities, of their lack of long term follow up of patients, of their failure to listen to parents.

It is my hope that the mainstream media will also highlight the grooming of children and vulnerable adults by followers of this unevidenced ideology both online and by institutions. That's exactly the sort of thing mothers tend to be concerned about and this is mumsnet.

2BthatUnnoticed Wed 27-Nov-19 08:36:45

As others have said, most posters here are trans, according to Stonewall.

Do we seem self-hating to you OP?

And yes, of course there are mums here with children affected, bizarre question confused

TheProdigalKittensReturn Wed 27-Nov-19 08:36:51

Looks like I may have to start another massive thread about the moderation...

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:38:18

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:39:22

@Branleuse I said hate because I kept seeing trans women equated with rapists.

BertrandRussell Wed 27-Nov-19 08:41:56

“ What about the violence faced by trans women? Isn't being attacked by men something we should show solidarity over?”
Yes, male violence is a huge issue, and one frequently discussed on Mumsnet. Do you have statistics about violence against transwomen?

One of the problems with the way reporting of crime is going that we will have no idea whether there are statistically more violence against or by trans or natal women.

QuentinWinters Wed 27-Nov-19 08:42:36

I see the issue then, it's that you don't believe that a person can be trans?
Not sure how you got there from my post confused
Of course people are trans. I work alongside several trans people. It's fine.

Male violence is a huge issue, we haven't fully answered the question of how and why males come to be more violent. There are a number of examples of violent men who transitioned but are still violent.

Many feminists are concerned about reducing levels of violence against women. So of course its of interest to discuss whether or not someone who has transitioned from man to trans women is less of a threat to females than someone who remains a man.
That's before even starting to think about predatory men who will take advantage of any loopholes to abuse women. Men have died trying to plant cameras in ladies facilities, I don't think those kind of men would be put off by having to present as female.

Anyway. Have to go. Meeting Bunbury at the WI this morning

BertrandRussell Wed 27-Nov-19 08:42:59

@Branleuse I said hate because I kept seeing trans women equated with rapists.”

Do you? I only see that when transwomen have raped. Which some have.

picklemepopcorn Wed 27-Nov-19 08:45:31

Lemonsqueasy it's already been said very clearly. Some transwomen are rapists. Presumably most are not. That isn't the issue.
Once male bodied people are in women's spaces it becomes far harder to protect women from other male bodied people like rapists.

Trojan horse.

Don't come asking questions which have already been answered. That's rude.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 27-Nov-19 08:47:23

* The hint is in the name- mumsnet.

Most posters on a site called mumsnet are going to be mothers.*

And we also know about sex being biological.

If the OP wants to help trans people, they might like to visit the Petitions board and support a petition some TW have set up asking for 'third spaces' to help them without impacting women's rights. These are 'real trans' - but the extreme transactivists are wont to vilify them as 'truscum', one of them was even (unsuccessfully) taken to court for ... transphobia.

cherryblossomgin Wed 27-Nov-19 08:48:21

I am probably what people call a liberal and at the start I had no issue with trans people. I think that if a person transitions they should legally called the sex they changed too.
......

But men shouldn't have access to female spaces, it's dangerous it puts all women at risk, I was wondering the other day, what if an angry incel realizes that all they have to do to have access to women is to pretend to be one?
.....

Men shouldn't be able to be classed as women in sport. Biologically men are built different to women and have the advantage, so women athletes are being pushed out. But my main issue is children being given hormone treatment, that is barbaric, I have hormonal issues and as a result I have infertility issues and osteoporosis. Giving a child the wrong hormones because they have shown behaviours from the opposite sex is crazy to me.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:49:43

@QuentinWinters I was led to believe you don't believe in trans because you referred to a trans woman as male:

* Why would transitioning stop a male being violent?*

Or am I missing another point about sex vs gender here?

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily Wed 27-Nov-19 08:49:52

lemonsqueasy Why do you keep using that childish insult cis, when you’re completely aware that women don’t like or need it added to female/women? There are transwomen and women. It’s really not difficult. You’re being very women phobic assuming we all align with a stereotype of female that the made up term cis implies. The vast majority of women are trans under the Stonewall umbrella. Actually, my female schnauzer cocks her leg to pee, so she doesn’t even identify as a cis dog, since cis implies a stereotype.

2BthatUnnoticed Wed 27-Nov-19 08:50:20

2-3 women are killed by men in the UK every week, that is around 104 women every year

In the States, 3 women are killed by men every day, that is around 1000 women killed every year.

The murder of women is so common place, it is hardly noticed.

Kitten can you find and bump your thread on moderation? It was a good one.

And Germane is calling I know!

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Wed 27-Nov-19 08:51:10

XY trans people commit sexual crimes at the same rate as other men.

All the reasons why women are entitled to segregation from men in situations we are vulnerable apply regardless of the XY person's 'gender identity'. We are no safer round XY trans people than any other man.

I find it interesting that in a week when the BBC has finally started to question the sterilisation and mutilation of children and vulnerable young people in the name of unevidenced gender ideology some individuals seem to want to discuss other matters. Any other matters.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily Wed 27-Nov-19 08:52:54

The only way OP wants to help transwomen is to goad posters into saying something that breaks guildlines, so the poster and TRAs can get screenshots and posters banned. Same old same old. It’s really rather boring now.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:55:37

There's no conspiracy here re the bbc doc, which I've heard about for the first time here.
Just constantly scrolling through active threads and decided to finally ask as it's an issue that's on there v frequently.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 08:58:10

@T0tallyFuckedUpFamily eh? Why would I be arsed about banning people?

Joisanofthedales Wed 27-Nov-19 09:00:15

Grey rocks are excellent for the Bunbury garden

Qcng Wed 27-Nov-19 09:00:15

trans widows 1

trans widows 2

trans widows 3

Many of these women still very much love their husbands, there's no "hate" but a lot of hurt.
Expecting to call your husband your wife, and then call yourself a lesbian in order to affirm their new identity, and your children to be expected to believe they now have 2 mothers, does take rather a toll.
Are you saying these women can't talk?

ROGD parents support
These parents are worried and very much love their children. They need to be able to talk about it.

Nousernameforme Wed 27-Nov-19 09:02:20

1st off are you a plopper or are you coming back?

TheProdigalKittensReturn Wed 27-Nov-19 09:03:13

Bumped. Here ye, here ye, go over to the moderation thread and add your experiences of questionable decisions you've been on the receiving end of.

2BthatUnnoticed Wed 27-Nov-19 09:03:15

PSA: it is generally frowned upon to use c*s when referring to women here.

In fact I thought it was banned? Similar to using m*n when referring to TW.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Wed 27-Nov-19 09:05:33

I believe it is banned but those of us on the evil witch/reality and science loving side of the debate tend not to report, so those comments tend to stand.

Fieldofgreycorn Wed 27-Nov-19 09:07:02

Looks like I may have to start another massive thread about the moderation...

Or just follow the guidelines like the rest of us.

Qcng Wed 27-Nov-19 09:08:05

Huh.
I just clicked on the break-it-down thread, and I noticed Datun's post deleted, then everyone saying what a great and clear post it was.

How annoying, bc i bet it really did explain things well.
I wonder if it was bc it used an acronym, I think it might have explained AGP too?

Looks like they've been busy retrospectively posts even though at the time of making the posts The Rules hadn't been set.

FloralBunting Wed 27-Nov-19 09:08:17

Yeah, I considered reporting the cis usage, based on goose and gender reasons, but I'm not into censoring so I haven't.

But yeah. We all know trans people exist. We also know that despite their sincerely held beliefs, they are not actually a member of the opposite sex.

And yes, you are conflating 'gender' and 'sex', so you are going to run into comprehension problems quickly.

Qcng Wed 27-Nov-19 09:08:55

^ Retrospectively deleting posts

TheProdigalKittensReturn Wed 27-Nov-19 09:09:54

I'm not explaining for the thousandth time why that doesn't really work, especially not when there's a whole thread that does so that you could go read if you were interested.

Devereux1 Wed 27-Nov-19 09:11:06

@tryandempathise

OK, let's see you do as your name is. Try And Empathise.

Using your trying and empathising, what do you think are the answers to the questions you have posed?

TiredofthisBS Wed 27-Nov-19 09:11:57

Can you provide proof of this 'hatred' OP? Links to specific threads and all that jazz.

Can you also explain why protecting women's rights and safeguarding children is a big issue for TRA's or why everything is no debate or shut down with erroneous accusations of transphobia or bigotry when they don't like what they are hearing?

I await your answers.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Wed 27-Nov-19 09:11:59

Datun's posts do tend to be remarkably clear and in deliberately level headed and non-inflammatory language, so it's a significant loss to the community when they're removed.

(If I'm the devil on one shoulder, or Lang is, Datun is the angel on the other.)

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 09:12:32

I'm aware of how much you hate 'cis' but I use it in this context because differentiating between trans women and 'women' implies that the former are not women. This is the root of the issue isn't it? I give trans women the benefit of the doubt and class them as women because why would you uproot your whole life and risk becoming a pariah over a lie?

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 09:13:26

@TiredofthisBS yep will do

FloralBunting Wed 27-Nov-19 09:15:47

lemon, I know why you use 'cis' but you need to be aware that it's against guidelines to do so, so you're going to have to jump through a few linguistic hoops to make your point. Rules are rules.

TiredofthisBS Wed 27-Nov-19 09:18:13

@lemonsqueasy I wait for your answer with bated breath. I'd ask that you refrain from using Cis. Personally I find the term insulting.

TheShoesa Wed 27-Nov-19 09:18:26

Or am I missing another point about sex vs gender here?

Yes you are:

Transitioning does not change the biological reality of a body's sex. It can, however, as Kristina Harrison (transwoman) said recently, allow a male person to live life being treated as if they are female - from a Telegraph article on the Maya Forstater case:

“The process of having surgery or hormone treatment cannot ultimately transform your sex,” Ms Harrison told the tribunal. “Every cell in my body has male chromosomes. I have a prostate. These things cannot be completely deconstructed. It is not possible to be biologically female. But that does not mean I can’t live a fulfilling life being treated as a woman.”

HorseWithNoFucksToGive Wed 27-Nov-19 09:18:40

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ilovethekitties Wed 27-Nov-19 09:19:31

I am 28, don't hate trans people, but do have a concern about people being able to self ID.

Women have sex only spaces for a reason, rape, murder, sexual harassment - the list goes on. By being able to self ID, this takes away our sex based rights that are bought in for our protection and that is extremely worrying. There has been threads that have linked articles of women and girls being attacked by self ID trans women in these spaces now.

I wish rather than slinging the word TERF around trans women could appreciate the stance of a lot of women in the UK and educated themselves as to why there is a backlash. We can no longer express our opinions or concerns without being abused, slandered or fired and it's so so scary. Women are once again being totally shit on due to whole culture.

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 09:20:04

In what way are transwomen women though? I understand that they feel not-male, but that's not the same as feeling like a woman. I don't agree that non-man = woman.

I don't know what it means to feel like a woman, or identify as a woman, in any other sense than biological.

But then I never understood souls either when I was at catholic school.

LangCleg Wed 27-Nov-19 09:20:40

(If I'm the devil on one shoulder, or Lang is, Datun is the angel on the other.)

Me? A devil? How very dare you! I'm a witch or I'm nothing!

MarshaBradyo Wed 27-Nov-19 09:20:55

Sex is not a construct. Gender is.

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 09:21:15

It is tricky to stay within talk and fwr guidelines and still make a clear point. You won't get any disagreement there!

LangCleg Wed 27-Nov-19 09:24:01

I post on FWR because I am an atheist, feminist and materialist leftist with an interest in child protection. Everything I say hereabouts is relevant to those politics.

OP - why are you posting in support of a bourgeois, male supremacist, hyper-capitalist, ultra-libertarian neo-religion with an agenda that includes the destruction of child safeguarding?

One would hope that clarifies things.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Wed 27-Nov-19 09:24:27

The word cis is not required to differentiate between XY trans people and women.

Women and transwomen will do perfectly well. There is no need to insult women by suggesting we are a subcategory of out own sex class. We are not, we are the whole category. Transwomen are not a part of our sex class at all. They are a subcategory of the m ale sex class.

If you wish to be trans inclusive about the female sex class you would talk of women, including transmen and not mentions XY trans people at all. XX trans people are the subset of the female sex class.

BertrandRussell Wed 27-Nov-19 09:24:33

I would like answers to the issues around women’s sport, please, @tryandempathise.

slipperywhensparticus Wed 27-Nov-19 09:24:41

Biological reality trumps feelings

I'm not concerned about being "attacked" by a trans person I'm concerned by people pretending to be trans to get access to vulnerable people about persons who shove a tampon up there arse and demand women wax there balls I'm concerned about persons with sword sticks in the ladies bathroom bleating about transphobic women because someone refused to share a space with them when they had it out (the sword stick obviously) I'm concerned because rapists who claim they are women are being locked up with women when they still have a fully functioning penis

I'm concerned this is a goady post but just in case there you go

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 09:25:25

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FloralBunting Wed 27-Nov-19 09:25:37

Yes, we would all prefer it if everyone could speak plainly. Sadly the guidelines were imposed upon us because transactivists pressured MNHQ to stop us from stating the sex of people where it was relevant to do so. To try and be even-handed, MNHQ also stopped us being called Cis and TERFs. We have to work around despite it being ridiculous and borderline abusive to specific people, so you will too.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Wed 27-Nov-19 09:26:49

Halloween is already over, put your witch costume away!

The problem with "cis" is that it's a lie. I don't identify with what society says women should be like at all. I think a lot of it is bollocks. That doesn't mean that I don't want to be a woman, though, it means that I object to sexism and the way it distorts societies.

BertrandRussell Wed 27-Nov-19 09:27:08

@lemonsqueasy- could you say a bit about women’s sport, please?

FloralBunting Wed 27-Nov-19 09:28:10

lemon, the issue for us is male entitlement and violence. We want women to be able to maintain whatever boundaries they need to set. Men have proved themselves quite determined over millennia to disregard those boundaries, transactivism is just the latest wedge issue.

RedToothBrush Wed 27-Nov-19 09:30:56

Why do Stonewall define being homosexual as based on gender identity not sex? This is homophobic.

Gender does not equal sex. By the admission of trans people themselves. You can not be trans if sex does not exist. The whole definition of trans is a reference to sex. Yet we are told that sex is a construct?

This is nonsense we are being told we have to believe, repeat and conform to. Without question. And if we don't we are at best bigots or at worst we should be either prosecuted for or 'die in a fire'.

Single sex accommodation was set up because it was recognised that this best protected women. This is what the UN recommend in developing countries.

Yet now we are being told that we are more civilised than those countries and both sexes can now share accommodation because its all about protecting trans people and they are absolutely safe and this change can not possibly be exploited or misused by abusive men. Why is it OK to say that those countries are not OK and we are better than them? Is there something fundamentally racist in there? And by extension are we saying we have progressed as a society to the point where we don't have a problem with sex crimes so we no longer need single sex accommodation? Cos that's a pretty big statement and I wonder who has pushed that despite the evidence. Evidence which is now being undermined and made worthless by stating that the sex of offenders is irrelevant in sex crimes and only gender matters. And of course this can't be exploited or manipulated.

All the evidence says differently. And we are supposed to ignore this too.

So yeah, us on MN are just ignorant and should suck up what we are told and behave like good little girls cos how people identify doesn't affect us, is perfectly fine and without risk and ultimately a progressive way forward. Cos someone says so.

Woe betide anyone with half a brain cell who can use it to think further than the end of their nose and their safe little bubble of life to anyone caught at the sharp end of this.

lemonsqueasy Wed 27-Nov-19 09:31:31

@DickKerrLadies the issue of not knowing what it feels like to be a woman, is that not because you are a woman and don't know anything else? Like being a twin?

DickKerrLadies Wed 27-Nov-19 09:32:46

Apologies OP, I missed your post about transmen (oh, the irony!) whilst I wasn't here - things are moving quickly.

Often, it's the group known as transmen that we're most concerned about - there has been a massive increase in the numbers of teenage girls presenting to gender clinics. In a number of these cases, these girls are autistic, lesbian or have suffered CSA.

I suppose my belief is that in at least some cases, gender dysphoria may be a symptom rather than a cause and I think it's wise to at least consider these things when a child feels they do not identify with their sex rather than jumping to irreversible treatment options which won't help if the GD is a result of something else.

Transmen being put into men's prisons and raping the inmates isn't something we need to consider for a number of reasons, whereas transwomen have been placed in women's prisons and have been convicted of raping other inmates.

The trans issue aside, the prison statistics regarding male and female crime are really interesting. The numbers alone were quite surprising.

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