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The women promoting transition.

(57 Posts)
PermanentTemporary Wed 27-Nov-19 06:55:21

@MNHQ I'm notifying you of this thread before even starting it...

I think a lot about women involved with promoting transition. Dr Olsen-Kennedy, Dr Webberley, Susie Green. The mothers who appear on forums discussing their small child's social transition in terms of clothing recommendations.

To me they seem like anti-feminists who locate the solution to women's oppression in changes to individuals' presentation in the world, and who will medicalise personal distress by removing distressed women from the community of women, while internalizing the distress of men at toxic masculinity by insisting that any man who feels that distress must be female.

But I'd feel pretty sure that every one of those women would say they are feminists. And many opponents of their approach would use their actions to discredit feminism and say that it's literally about castration... or that 'feminists asked for this' by analysing society in terms of sexual oppression.

I guess I am struggling with the fact that so many women disagree with me in this! I feel like a sex traitor. These, after all,are the women Dworkin meant when she talked about women you don't like.

Kit19 Thu 28-Nov-19 08:22:36

this is one I struggle with a lot. older lesbian friend in long term settled relationship & strong feminist has completely brought into the 'equality act provides all the legal cover rquired so self ID is not an issue' to the point where she will no longer speak to me about this "I cant believe you're a TERF"

younger friends wont even discuss it, are completly no debate. For example, one of them also identifies as a lesbian and went on a long rant on our fb group about men targeting lesbians "we're not interested in cok dude" and then somene said "what about TW?" and they straight away said "TWAW so I dont see what your point is" I mean I just cant even begin to understand that mind set other than to say that to her its a theoretical position in that she identifies as a lesbian but has never dated anyone male or female. Another friend has a sibling who has come out as trans and it breaks my heart to see her bravely call her brother, her sister, worrying about them not passing and all the prejudice they will face whilst also raging about how sexist the world is....it makes my head explode

NonnyMouse1337 Thu 28-Nov-19 08:30:36

one of them also identifies as a lesbian and went on a long rant on our fb group about men targeting lesbians "we're not interested in cok dude" and then somene said "what about TW?" and they straight away said "TWAW so I dont see what your point is"

LOL

The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one. grin

Kit19 Thu 28-Nov-19 08:42:22

@NonnyMouse1337

IKR? i see it a lot though on social media. Young lesbians ranting about how disgusting it is they are targeted by men "we're lesbians, we dont want your dick" and as sure as the sun rises someone will ask about TW and they will be "TWAW end of"

i assume they see them as fellow 'outsiders' and also idk how many of them have had sexual relationships at all or really see it in those terms

it makes my brain ache lol

NonnyMouse1337 Thu 28-Nov-19 08:47:57

They probably don't truly believe it deep down but TWAW is like some superstitious mantra you have to chant to keep the vicious TRA demons at bay. They know how aggressive and cruel TRAs are and fear being hounded on social media and word getting around that they are 'transphobic' and will be ostracised by their peer group.
So the quicker you chant TWAW, it might pacify the watchful, vengeful eyes and hopefully they will leave you alone.

ErrolTheDragon Thu 28-Nov-19 09:08:00

I don't suppose this young woman is actually naive enough to think that TW are all surgically transitioned?confused

NonnyMouse1337 Thu 28-Nov-19 10:10:19

She probably does think that... Or she's buying into the myth that when a man says he is a woman, his horrible, awful man penis transforms via magical gender sparkles into a lovely, beautiful lady penis that any lesbian would find arousing. confused

Goosefoot Thu 28-Nov-19 11:26:44

They probably don't truly believe it deep down but TWAW is like some superstitious mantra you have to chant to keep the vicious TRA demons at bay. They know how aggressive and cruel TRAs are and fear being hounded on social media and word getting around that they are 'transphobic' and will be ostracised by their peer group.

I really don't think this is it, in the main. The women I know who saw this aren't trying to keep from being attacked, they are themselves likely to be attackers or at least believe those who don't agree are bigots.

GetbusywiththeFizzee Thu 28-Nov-19 11:46:05

I know one person like this: middle aged, intelligent, champions women’s rights and employed in this capacity but firmly believes TWAW because and repeats the ‘born in the wrong body’ mantra.
When we’ve discussed this, her stance is I’m a narrow minded bigot who refuses to support another woman trapped in the wrong body.
I say this in the kindest way- she’s in a long term abusive relationship and has poor boundaries ; I think she’s spent so many years being manipulated by her arse of a husband, she clings to the belief that there’s a class of woman even more down trodden than her. Human psychology I suppose.

GetbusywiththeFizzee Thu 28-Nov-19 11:53:09

To add to my previous post, I think it’s women whose internal belief system is that men are superior to them yet a part of them knows this is actually untrue . Bringing men ‘on side’ as women then makes these women feel better in some way, maybe it raises their perception of women in society and in turn their own sense of self?

NonnyMouse1337 Thu 28-Nov-19 11:53:48

Goosefoot from what I've observed, there are two types of women who use the TWAW mantra.

There's the gender ideology believer that you describe who is a self-appointed guardian of morality to go around attacking and telling people off in all the social media groups they are in, and feeling very smug about it all and feeling that they are some really important player in this grand fight for trans rights.

The other type is a bit timid and docile and faithfully uses the TWAW mantra but doesn't seem as strong in the faith as the first type. They say they truly believe but always seem a bit nervous to engage in heated debate with outsiders, they flounder easily and retreat quickly, they might repeat all the usual propaganda and just want everyone to be nice and play along. When the 'what about trans women' phrase is thrown into any conversation, this type very quickly backtracks and uses the TWAW mantra as a token to observers that they are part of the faith and to signify that they too believe, so that they don't provoke any backlash. They seem apologetic or fearful in their behaviour, as if they think the slightest infraction could be misconstrued as transphobia on their part.
They quickly say TWAW and bail out of any potential argument. It's like their faith would crumble if they were forced to justify their position.

I think the timid type is in awe and also in slight fear of the more pushy righteous keyboard warrior type.

Goosefoot Thu 28-Nov-19 12:07:45

Nonnymouse

Yes, I think that's probably true. I see the second type getting involved in conversations about this topic more by accident, often when they don't realise some POV is out of bounds.

NonnyMouse1337 Thu 28-Nov-19 12:15:52

Yes I've had online conversations with some women who seemed very onboard with what I was saying ( for example, talking about male violence) and agreeing with me that men might not understand women's experience etc etc, but then when the TRA enters the thread and says the dreaded 'what about trans women', all of a sudden it's a very deferential 'of course TWAW' and they want to quickly exit this perfectly rational conversation as they realise they have overstepped an imaginary boundary and been caught in the act for the crime of engaging in conversation with a 'transphobe'.

Justhadathought Thu 28-Nov-19 12:36:01

You think that a working class person might not support a party which encourages hard work and initiative?

Of course, and most 'traditional' working class people do, which is why many end up turning to the right when they see others "getting stuff for free" etc......but then don't necessarily see, that for most, it doesn't matter how hard you work - if you are born into a class or another 'condition' in which the cards are stacked against you from birth, then there is only so far that hard work will get you.

Basically, there is no analysis of class or other structural prejudices in Toryism - it is all about the individual, and about making things easier or more profitable for businesses and corporations.

Goosefoot Thu 28-Nov-19 13:12:06

It's not true that Toryism per se is about individualism. Since the early 80s conservatives in many countries have embraced economic individualism. Before that, they weren't especially known for that, less so the farther back you go.
Even now, it's not particularly the case that they've embraced social individualism, they've maintained a sort of class analysis there, a structural approach.
Liberals of various types historically have been the ones who supported economic liberalism. Now they claim to take a more structural approach, though frankly I think it clearly serves capital rather than any other class group despite appearances to the contrary.
On the other hand they have embraced social individualism quite markedly.
As a concept though, Toryism and Conservatism are not about individualism, they are about social structures. The exception to that might legitimately be the US. Their state was founded on individualism and so arguably that is "conservative" for them. Though it's still not Tory, they don't have much of a Tory tradition.

NotDavidTennant Thu 28-Nov-19 13:36:13

There's a strong element of reverse psychology to it. Because social conservatives have long discriminated against and even persecuted those who are not gender-conforming, including trans individuals, many people who regard themselves as socially progressive feel that they must take the diametrically opposed position, which means unconditional support for trans and "queer" people. It really is as shallow as that.

Needmoresleep Thu 28-Nov-19 14:22:22

I am curious about Jan Gooding, Chair of Stonewall and hugely influential in the city (major roles in several blue chip companies including Aviva and a marketing expert).

I am inclined to believe that Ruth Hunt did not change Stonewall’s direction, but that she, as a long term staffer, was appointed to deliver the Trustees priorities. My impression was that she was quite lightweight so more likely used to deliver someone else’s agenda.

What is Jan Gooding about? Is she with the T, which I assume she is, given Stonewall’s role in the mess, and why. Does she care about lesbians and the erosion of female rights and protections? Or has she been part of City boy’s clubs so long she prioritises her acceptance by men over any solidarity with women?

And why can’t she find a new CE for Stonewall? Is there a problem identifying someone with the necessary vision and experience, who also lines up with Trustee priorities?

Ereshkigal Thu 28-Nov-19 14:46:42

There's a strong element of reverse psychology to it. Because social conservatives have long discriminated against and even persecuted those who are not gender-conforming, including trans individuals, many people who regard themselves as socially progressive feel that they must take the diametrically opposed position, which means unconditional support for trans and "queer" people. It really is as shallow as that.

Yes I think so. Especially in the US where it's more polarised along political/religious lines.

quickkimchi Thu 28-Nov-19 17:24:44

Op, when I feel like this I remind myself that it's unfair to hold women to a higher standard than others. Most women are not feminists. We all swim in the same cultural waters.

Getbusy but I thought the 'born in the wrong body' narrative was medicalisation, stigmatisation, transphobia and actual violence? Ask your friend why she's so transphobic.

DickKerrLadies Thu 28-Nov-19 17:36:05

I suppose it's further proof that the only thing women have in common is our biology.

EmpressLesbianInChair Thu 28-Nov-19 20:15:43

I am inclined to believe that Ruth Hunt did not change Stonewall’s direction, but that she, as a long term staffer, was appointed to deliver the Trustees priorities. My impression was that she was quite lightweight so more likely used to deliver someone else’s agenda.

Julie Bindel has a couple of Twitter threads about Ruth Hunt’s change of policy on trans issues. She thought Jan Gooding was behind it.

twitter.com/bindelj/status/1047899829773504513?s=21

twitter.com/bindelj/status/1099811242259238913?s=21

Chiochan Thu 28-Nov-19 20:27:01

I think a lot of peole are unaware that there is no actual scientific evidence for born in the wrong body.
there was some studys along the lines of gay men missing out on testostrone in the womb and having a more feminisied brain (probably now debunked) and I think this has lead people to believe gendered brains are an acutal thing.

GetbusywiththeFizzee Thu 28-Nov-19 21:21:41

Re wrong body, we tend not to talk about this anymore after I wondered out loud if she was taking the proverbial for the entertainment factor. That came off the back of her saying she knows someone very gentle, easy to talk to unlike other men and now he’s transitioned she realises it was because he was actually a woman all along. 🤦‍♀️
Like the user name Quick 😀

HandsOffMyRights Thu 28-Nov-19 22:49:15

Just watching Question time with Caroline Lucas, who still ended up on T*RFblocker despite courting the TRAs.

Goosefoot Fri 29-Nov-19 00:10:07

Chiochan

Yes, that's been my observation. Many people have heard in someplace that there is some scientific justification for that idea and are still thinking on that basis. I've talked to quite a few who read something in Scientific American or National geographic, which they consider to be reliable about scientific questions.
They don't believe someone like you or I who tells them otherwise, and I can't blame them in a way.

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen Fri 29-Nov-19 01:12:31

What I find really irritating is women who think that, because they don't mind men in women's only spaces, the rest of us shouldn't. Some women like rough sex - does that mean the rest of us should consent to that also? It's just a ridiculous argument and the self-centredness of it really annoys me.

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