Talk

Advanced search

Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!

(692 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 17:09:48

So, I got an email about a comment in which I said that I wanted to know why genderists keep comparing trans identified males to black women and lesbians being deleted. I think this is absolutely barmy, and have said so to HQ. I'm also baffled as to how this breaks any guidelines and thought perhaps it was time for us as a group to revisit the guidelines and explain once more to MNHQ why they're not working.

What's actually happening here is the the obsessive trans activists who monitor this site are attempting to pick off posters one by one. We lost Orchid last week, and she was just the most recent of many. I'm not sure in MNHQ realize that's happening and welcome it or if it's somehow escaped their notice, but it's a pretty messed up thing for them to be allowing to happen to their users, in my opinion. Are they going to allow this to continue until the only commenters left in this forum are the TRAs who want the entire site shut down?

I know the people who despise the women here would very much like this to all happen under the radar, and that's exactly why I'm not allowing it to play out that way.

BarbaraStrozzi Mon 11-Nov-19 21:06:43

Yup! It got reinstated with an apology - I presume a trainee in the back office had seen the word "racist" in the complaint and hit the big red delete button without even reading (it was back in the day when people were being encouraged to report via the MN twitter feed). Quite funny once it had been reinstated (I was pretty fuming when it was deleted).

It also wasn't even on FWR, it was some light hearted AIBU thread - so they really had been following names they recognised via advanced search and trying to get people banned for the hell of it.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 11-Nov-19 21:08:14

No acknowledgement that a lack of understanding of the dynamics of community disruption is at play. Just a warning to regular users not to doxx - when they don't anyway and were the ones pointing out that it's bad on the thread.

This makes it look like the evil nest of vipers were trying to doxx Frack. Except we weren't, we immediately jumped in to tell the random/s to not do that. Why is MNHQ making it look like its regular users are the kind of people who would do that?

Creepster Mon 11-Nov-19 21:10:51

IIRC that is yjr tactic called DARVO.

TheChampagneGalop Mon 11-Nov-19 21:14:30

Wow Barbara
There are some angry and obsessed people out there, who needs to get a life.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 11-Nov-19 21:28:27

I remember the "thinking British food is a bit boring" deletion! Well, much of the world thinks that, so if British cuisine identifies as being a world class cuisine on a par with French or Persian or Thai it's going find forcing everyone to recognize it's self identified awesomeness a bit of a challenge. Reality is often an inconvenience to those who choose not to embrace it.

BarbaraStrozzi Mon 11-Nov-19 21:29:58

"This plate of tripe and onions identifies as pate de fois gras..."

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman Mon 11-Nov-19 21:32:02

Very very late to the party but flowers and gin to @TalkingintheDark for that amazing post which sums up so many of my disordered thoughts on this topic.

I tend to lurk much more than I post on FWR. But I am enraged by TRAs telling women what we may call ourselves, and then accusing us of being meanies to them.

Creepster Mon 11-Nov-19 21:39:34

There is something beyond bizarre for a website that calls itself Mumsnet discriminating against women on the basis of sex in the section they call Feminism chat.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 11-Nov-19 22:12:56

To be fair, having read the thread restoration message now, MNHQ did at least acknowledge that the regulars immediately tried to put a stop to any attempts to reveal Frack's identity, so perhaps they do realize we're not all witches.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 12-Nov-19 11:53:43

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the points made and questions raised. We’ll try to answer some of the main ones.

It's always worth repeating that discussions where there are polarised views and feelings are running high are always particularly difficult to moderate. And we try very hard to treat everyone fairly, which is why we have the three strikes system. We're always happy to explain our thinking and look again at decisions.

On the subject of your original post Prodigal; yes, the reason for your last deletion was the use of the phrase 'TIM', nothing more. It’s mentioned in our guidelines on moderating threads about trans issues, and there's more discussion of it on this thread. Essentially, while we understand that not everyone will agree, we do regard it as an inflammatory term which is avoidable and as such, will usually delete it.

Regarding the phrase, 'peak trans': Again, while we will always look at context, it is a phrase that isn't likely to encourage civil debate, so we do sometimes delete it.

The idea of civil and constructive debate is at the heart of our moderation on this issue. We're trying hard to maintain a space for these important discussions, and a vital part of that is ensuring that all voices and opinions are welcome.

We know that pejorative words are often thrown at gender critical feminists on social media, but two wrongs don’t make a right, and on Mumsnet we think that by encouraging civil debate we can do better than this type of name calling, and we certainly don’t tolerate it here.

We will always delete posts that include negative generalisations about the entire trans community when they’re reported or when we spot them. This just isn’t something we can tolerate. There’s a very big difference between making thoughtful arguments (TalkingInTheDark’s post is an example of this) and posting pejorative generalisations about trans people. Posters who simply believe that trans people are weird, or shouldn’t be allowed to express their trans identity, just aren’t welcome on Mumsnet.

While many sites have not been able to continue to host this debate, thus far we have, despite fairly significant cost in terms of time and money. We’ve done so because users have, in fact, largely been able to discuss feminism and transgender issues without breaking our guidelines. We very much believe it is possible to make pretty much all the points that you have raised - both in this thread and across the boards - without falling foul of our guidelines and the three strike system.

On the issue of reporting, please be assured that the person reporting is not at the forefront of our minds when moderating. We simply look at the post in context and apply our guidelines to decide whether or not it warrants deletion.

With regards to quoted posts that are deleted, no, we wouldn't usually send strikes for those. We add to the deletion message if quoting was the reason for a post being removed.

And with the concerns about new posters 'stealing names', do always drop us a line about that as it occurs, we’ll be happy to take a look.

Sadly we are finding it impossible resource-wise to send an email about every deletion we make on the boards, so we can’t promise to do that but if we're issuing a strike we will always get in touch. I also want to stress that there is no difference in weekend moderation - our whole team has many years experience in moderating online communities and works flexibly across weekdays and week-ends.

I was genuinely saddened to read the comments accusing our moderators of coercive control - nothing could be further from the truth. It’s a challenging topic to moderate and as mentioned, it's not easy for us to host and be at the centre of this debate and legal and commercial fall out that comes along with it. But we believe that Mumsnet absolutely should provide a place to discuss an issue that is an important one for so many women and parents. Thanks to all those who have expressed support and cooperation in following our guidelines in order to help us to continue to host this conversation.

NotBadConsidering Tue 12-Nov-19 11:59:24

Thanks Justine

so we can’t promise to do that but if we're issuing a strike we will always get in touch

But isn’t this one of the issues? People aren’t being told they’re on a strike.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Tue 12-Nov-19 12:08:57

Thanks for the response, Justine. What are people who absolutely cannot bring themselves to use the word "woman" when referring to male individuals meant to do, though? If terms that indicate that the person is both male and trans will garner not only a deletion but a strike too, how are people who think it's wrong to use the word "woman" in relation to the people being referred to meant to participate in the conversation? Just repeat their name over and over again? Because I guarantee that some people would report that as not in the spirit (and I do think it comes across as sarcastic and not at all friendly).

This has been asked before and I don't think we ever got a clear response

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Tue 12-Nov-19 12:09:13

Thanks for the reply Justine

I'd still really love to hear your thoughts on OrchidInTheSun being summarily banned

As explained up thread, she had been posting on the site for 14 years, supporting other women, providing content for you.

She wanted and tried to stay inside the rules, but something has gone very wrong in the way you explain them, because despite that she apparently wasn't able to.

And was banned for the post

How awful for you

completely in line with her normal posting style, she was expressing sympathy for a fellow poster. Of course that poster subsequently turned out to be a troll, but that's another story.

What's your feeling on this?

LangCleg Tue 12-Nov-19 12:12:25

I don't see any substantive response to the questions we've asked you, Justine - other than "la la la, you've got it wrong, nothing to see here".

But thanks for acknowledging the thread.

NotBadConsidering Tue 12-Nov-19 12:12:50

our whole team has many years experience in moderating online communities and works flexibly across weekdays and week-end

Why is it we can all see when a thread is being manipulated for deletion but they can’t then?

And one last question: do you have any answer to how to deal with the vexatious reporting by known TRAs who publicly admit they monitor this forum and report messages that they blatantly just don’t like what is being said? I think we all know many posts are deleted here not because they break any guidelines. This thread is full of examples.

ErrolTheDragon Tue 12-Nov-19 12:16:25

Thanks for the response, Justine. I appreciate the balance you're trying to maintain, and that it's not easy.

Is it not possible to send at least an automated message if a post is deleted? Of course, it's posters' responsibility to check the email account they signed up on.

Re the coercive control - the posts I've noticed on this seem to suggest not that mods are doing it, more that coercive control methods are being employed by people hostile to women being allowed to talk here.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Tue 12-Nov-19 12:19:21

I was genuinely saddened to read the comments accusing our moderators of coercive control

yes, this shows you haven't really understood those posts Justine

Moderators are acting as agents for people who are exercising coercive control over posters here, not exercising coercive control themselves

the difference is important

LangCleg Tue 12-Nov-19 12:21:54

There’s a very big difference between making thoughtful arguments (TalkingInTheDark’s post is an example of this) and posting pejorative generalisations about trans people.

Can I just clarify this, Justine?

You think Talking made a thoughtful argument but you are not persuaded by it? Is that correct?

Also: if you genuinely think that post would have remained up on any other thread but this one, you really haven't listened to a word we said.

Sorry: I'm struggling to stay within the guidelines by not being rude to staffers here. It's not easy.

EmpressLesbianInChair Tue 12-Nov-19 12:21:57

Posters who simply believe that trans people are weird, or shouldn’t be allowed to express their trans identity, just aren’t welcome on Mumsnet.

Justine, I don't think any of us have a problem with people dressing however they choose. But many of us don't believe males should be able to "express their trans identity" by competing in women's sports or using women's single-sex spaces.

We think it's wrong for children to be able to "express their trans identity" by taking puberty blockers with severe, lifelong side effects, and for teenage girls to be able to "express their trans identity" by taking testosterone or having mastectomies.

Is what you're saying that we're not welcome on Mumsnet?

TalkingintheDark Tue 12-Nov-19 12:25:40

Yes.

It’s a very vague term, to “express [one’s] trans identity”, isn’t it?

What exactly is encompassed within it?

Datun Tue 12-Nov-19 12:26:50

Posters who simply believe that trans people are weird, or shouldn’t be allowed to express their trans identity, just aren’t welcome on Mumsnet.

You need to clarify what you mean by trans identity tho, it could mean anything.

Rapists in female prisons are expressing their trans identity. Men beating women at sports, are expressing their trans identity. Men ejaculating into women's underwear at Marks & Spencer's, are expressing their trans identity, according to them.

TalkingintheDark Tue 12-Nov-19 12:28:33

I am very sad to see that the issue of Orchid’s suspension for a post that was so innocuous, that was not intended in any sense that would break the guidelines - far from it - has been completely ignored.

EmpressLesbianInChair Tue 12-Nov-19 12:29:19

I am very sad to see that the issue of Orchid’s suspension for a post that was so innocuous, that was not intended in any sense that would break the guidelines - far from it - has been completely ignored.

Yes, me too.

LangCleg Tue 12-Nov-19 12:31:49

While many sites have not been able to continue to host this debate, thus far we have, despite fairly significant cost in terms of time and money

This, as well, Justine, completely ignores the point we've made to you several times on this thread. To whit: sites with a reputation for censoring feminist much bigger than this one have hosted posts you have deleted, where they have gone viral. Posts you have issued strikes for and, in Barracker's case, even banned users for, then had to backtrack several times. And we have no idea how many women you have banned and have not told us, so we were unable to shame you into reinstating.

PencilsInSpace Tue 12-Nov-19 12:33:41

Thank you for the response.

I would still like an explanation of why Orchid was banned. Decisions like this are part of what makes us feel we are treading on eggshells.

Sadly we are finding it impossible resource-wise to send an email about every deletion we make on the boards

Can't you automate this?

Join the discussion

Registering is free, quick, and means you can join in the discussion, watch threads, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Get started »