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Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!

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MNHQ have commented on this thread.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 17:09:48

So, I got an email about a comment in which I said that I wanted to know why genderists keep comparing trans identified males to black women and lesbians being deleted. I think this is absolutely barmy, and have said so to HQ. I'm also baffled as to how this breaks any guidelines and thought perhaps it was time for us as a group to revisit the guidelines and explain once more to MNHQ why they're not working.

What's actually happening here is the the obsessive trans activists who monitor this site are attempting to pick off posters one by one. We lost Orchid last week, and she was just the most recent of many. I'm not sure in MNHQ realize that's happening and welcome it or if it's somehow escaped their notice, but it's a pretty messed up thing for them to be allowing to happen to their users, in my opinion. Are they going to allow this to continue until the only commenters left in this forum are the TRAs who want the entire site shut down?

I know the people who despise the women here would very much like this to all happen under the radar, and that's exactly why I'm not allowing it to play out that way.

OvaHere Mon 04-Nov-19 17:20:29

Well said.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 17:21:16

You've used a phrase there which is pretty much explicitly banned by the guidelines, kitten, I'm afraid. There is some explanation of MNHQs thinking on that. Not saying I agree, but imo it's best to just steer clear of own goals.

littlbrowndog Mon 04-Nov-19 17:21:42

Yes exactly kittens

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 17:25:14

I can't quote the comment that was deleted here in case they delete it again but it really was completely banal and not in any way in breech of the guidelines, unless we're not allowed to say "trans identified males", in which case that's ridiculous and an attempt to compel speech. I have of course emailed a response but I disapprove strongly of attempts to handle this in a way that isolates each woman being targeted and leaves her without the ability to discuss what's happening with other women. We need to be discussing this as a group.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 17:28:03

Well, if the phrase "trans identified males" is banned then here I am very publicly registering my objection to that, because it's absurd. If that's the policy it needs to be changed. They also need to start explaining precisely what they're objecting to in comments they delete rather than a waffly "this breaks guidelines" with no explanation as to why.

HandsOffMyRights Mon 04-Nov-19 17:30:00

Agree wholeheartedly.
The smear campaign against Mumsnet and picking off posters shows how desperate MRAs are to silence us.

LangCleg Mon 04-Nov-19 17:30:53

Initial thought on the specifics: genderists ≠ transpeople. Genderists = all people who subscribe to postmodernist/queer theory ideology. Many such people are not trans. So the rule about not generalising about transpeople does not apply.

Have the rules changed? Is it now not permissible to criticise a particular socio-political ideology?

Also: it's fucking racist to compare black women to people who aren't women. RACIST. Are we not allowed to name racism if it offends the sacred caste?

LiterallyProblematic Mon 04-Nov-19 17:32:25

I've had two posts and a thread deleted recently. I think they are really clamping down. I think peaktrans might be another term they are automatically deleting.
It's a shame. It must be about advertising revenue, but censorship is surely counterproductive.

LangCleg Mon 04-Nov-19 17:32:45

Oh, and placing an obligation on women to endlessly self edit for fear of causing offence about phrasing - there's a name for that: coercive control.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 17:34:32

Pretty sure from what kittens said it's not 'genderists' which was deemed problematic, Lang.

Here's what's probably the relevant section. Maybe we should have a thread under Site Stuff to critique specific parts of the guidelines?

^ ^*Can I use the expression ‘TIM’ (trans-identified male) in conversation with one another, as long as we don’t use it in conversation with someone who is themselves transgender?*
We're likely to delete this term however it's used. 'Trans-identified' seems pretty goady – people generally don't identify as trans, but as the opposite sex. As someone said on this threadd^^, one person can't really tell another how they identify, even if they disagree with the logic.
‘TIM’ also focuses heavily on natal sex. We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male, and as ever, there is room for mods to exercise their individual judgment. But we think trans people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex.^

LumpySpacedPrincess Mon 04-Nov-19 17:36:20

Yes, I've had similar recently. I used men with a trans identity so is that banned?

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 17:37:58

That term isn't goady, it's factual. I hadn't noticed that it had been added to the guidelines but again, that's ridiculous and it needs to be removed. Adding that forces women to use the term "transwomen", which is compelling people to say something they don't believe to be true. Absolutely not on at all and nobody should be given a strike for that.

Has peak trans been added to the guidelines? If not and they're deleting people for it then again, that's just not on.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 17:41:57

I don't disagree, kittens, but I think that section has been there since the clarifications were added (19 June 2018)

There's no mention of 'peak trans', no idea why that might be deemed problematic.confused

https://www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

Hazardd Mon 04-Nov-19 17:45:57

Maybe and this is just maybe...

Comparing black women's oppression or describing/suggesting black women as a "type" of woman is so utterly offensive and in poor taste.

The mere idea is so horribly racist and HQ took the stand that they will not spread such ideology even when it's spoken about unfavourable.

Maybe.

So maybe mumsnet is coming down tough on the spread of racist ideology and should be applauded. Maybe hmm

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 17:47:17

Well, I'm officially very pissed off now after receiving a generic brush off in response to my attempt to communicate directly with MNHQ as they asked that we do. And that's why this thread exists. If they're going to coercively control their users and force us to call males women then that is going to happen in public rather than women being targeted and having no way of expressing to their fellow commenters what's being done to them.

Presumably I will be banned for this but I would rather go out fighting than meekly submit to coercive control in the guise of "hosting debate".

ShesDressedInBlackAgain Mon 04-Nov-19 17:47:23

Ah 'peak trans' got added to the 'really useful phrases that describe the GC position and should therefore be verboten' list a couple of weeks ago didn't it?

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 17:48:15

Here's a specific question for @MNHQ

I assume you agree with us that compelled speech is wrong? So, what form of words can be used by posters who fundamentally object to terms which include 'woman' when referring to transgender people who were born male?

If there's no acceptable term which doesn't include 'woman', then such posters are gagged, I'm absolutely sure that is not what you want.

ControversialFerret Mon 04-Nov-19 17:51:05

Dear MNHQ,

Please remember that only women give birth - and that 'Mums' specifically refers to women.

Whilst the site has grown to include all sorts of other things, it would be a massive own goal to alienate your core readership - which is women.

Sincerely,
An adult human female.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 17:51:59

I've just reported that post of mine - and now I need to make dinner. I'd much rather have a considered response than a quick one on this so I shall be patient.

LangCleg Mon 04-Nov-19 17:52:47

I assume you agree with us that compelled speech is wrong? So, what form of words can be used by posters who fundamentally object to terms which include 'woman' when referring to transgender people who were born male?

In the many site stuff threads about the guidelines when they first came in, I asked several times for an acceptable term for people not of my sex that does not use words pertaining to my sex.

Answer came there none.

PencilsInSpace Mon 04-Nov-19 17:54:14

people generally don't identify as trans, but as the opposite sex.

This is inaccurate isn't it?

Unless we are talking about a specific individual who has stated their 'gender identity' we have no way of knowing if a trans person, who is male, identifies as a woman, as non-binary, as gender fluid, as genderqueer, as trans femme ...

And it makes not a blind bit of difference to us. The only reason there is a problem in the first place is that they are male and they are harming women's rights.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 17:56:39

Answer came there none.

Hence my anger. I had thought they had seen sense about this and realized that forcing their mostly female users to refer to males as women was unreasonable. It is unreasonable.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 17:57:18

Good point, pencils.
'Male who identifies in one of the many and various ways encompassed by the Stonewall umbrella' is a bit of a mouthful, though.

StopThePlanet Mon 04-Nov-19 17:59:21

"Trans identified..." is accurate yet banned IIRC. Remember ladies, be polite to your own detriment... SMILE PRETTY now.

I recently had a thread deleted that had nothing to do with trans individuals nor any links to said individuals.

My thread was about a mainstream movie on Netflix that exposed a female child in a way I (and DH) found disturbingly inappropriate. It was obvious that I tried incredibly hard to phrase things in a direct yet careful way. My concerns were about exploitation of a baby girl and why it is okay (in media) to expose a child's private areas in the name of "Indi artsy films".

I don't know wtf is going on around here. While I doubt anyone would notice if I disappeared from MN (as of late I rarely post anything) I find the thread delete with no reason (I didn't break guidelines I didn't say anything controversial or insulting) to be highly censuring of my speech. I am concerned that my want to discuss the exploitation of a child, a female child was found to be offensive or whatever bullshit the mods conjured up to block discussion about a very important topic highly relevant to FWR. How is it not okay on FWR of all places to be concerned about a female child's inability to consent to lingering exposure of her body?

koshkat Mon 04-Nov-19 18:00:52

It is ludicrous, sad and frustrating that women have to dance to the tune of controlling men even when on a forum for women and specifically about feminism. In 20fucking19.

I have been banned from twitter countless times and no longer go back, also from the teaching forum I used to frequent for even daring to mention that there may be something dubious about 'trans kids' and I expect that if MN are getting heavy on the modding I shall be banned from here soon too.

Grim.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:01:40

WTF, StopThePlanet? So now we're not allowed to talk about children being exploited even if those children are not trans and the conversation we're trying to have has nothing to do with trans people? On a parenting site?

Why? Let's add that to the list of things that @MNHQ really ought to explain.

koshkat Mon 04-Nov-19 18:03:46

How is it not okay on FWR of all places to be concerned about a female child's inability to consent to lingering exposure of her body?

Because you assumed her gender perhaps? That is far more important than the fact that she was exploited in such a blatant and horrible way. hmm

koshkat Mon 04-Nov-19 18:04:14

MN need to explain.

BeMoreMagdalen Mon 04-Nov-19 18:06:25

But 'trans' is an 'identity'. confused

Trans people use it as an umbrella term for a whole myriad of permutations. I have read and heard so many trans people introduce themselves with "I identify as trans and these are my pronouns."

Seriously, this one is about 'male' and they bloody know it. This is MNHQ saying 'you can't refer to a group of people by their sex, even though it is the only thing relevant to why you are even discussing them as feminists, because... well, we're not sure really, but it's all a bit uncivil and unseemly.'

happydappy2 Mon 04-Nov-19 18:06:51

Back around 17th June I started a thread asking MNHQ if we could use the term 'trans identified male', rather than transwomen, as the term transwoman IS misleading....it ran to over 2000 posts and certain posters were VERY pissed off. Funnily enough the disgruntled ones were able to post throughout the night, almost like they were in a different time zone.....

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:08:15

I think I saw your thread, planets. Iirc I think you fell foul of the late night troll hunters who unfortunately all too often correctly identify threads about kids which have very bad motivations. If they'd bothered to read the synopsis of the film on wiki they'd have perhaps realised yours was nothing like that (sounded like a bloody awful film tbh)

Qcng Mon 04-Nov-19 18:09:21

"Trans identified male" has been a banned term for ages.

Deletions always go up after high profile events such as after Spartacus, Ocado, the Flora boycott, this new double-down is probably because the M&S threads are getting a lot of attention.

The corporations (M&S etc) start ringing MNHQ with "concerns" WRT their association and advertising with MN. MN have to double down on feminist posts or lose advertising revenue.
It's a constant battle for them.

At least they allow the debate at all, unlike Twitter / Facebook / everywhere else, who basically ban gender critical thinking completely.

BeMoreMagdalen Mon 04-Nov-19 18:11:51

And threads started from pure Goady Fuckery get left up with polite notices from Mods to be nice to the GF, or even to stay 'on topic' when the topic is goading the fucking shit out of the women here. It's like my mother has come back from the dead and is running the MN mod team.

StopThePlanet Mon 04-Nov-19 18:13:06

Yeah...

I still feel creeped out by the scene. I wish... I really really really wish we could discuss it openly here. There are few things I feel that only the women of FWR can help me sort and I need help on this one (to parse it, to perhaps be righted like possibly my personal experiences are clouding my perspective? Or am I and DH right on in our disturbed disgust?).

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:14:07

Twitter seems to be backing down a bit actually, I've noticed that nobody is getting hit with the banhammer for calling Yaniv a man any more, and there are pointing out reality tweets in response to pretty much every recent attempt at propaganda. Chase Strangio got roundly mocked for the recent "I can't pay my bills because the envelope deadnames me" tweet.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:14:22

*
At least they allow the debate at all, unlike Twitter / Facebook / everywhere else, who basically ban gender critical thinking completely.

Yes - at least on MN we have this down in writing:
We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born Male

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:16:52

But they do in fact prevent us from asserting just that. That's the problem, and the reason this thread exists.

BeMoreMagdalen Mon 04-Nov-19 18:17:05

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

StopThePlanet Mon 04-Nov-19 18:17:09

Either way, watching our sisters fall like dragonflies to avoid male approach is really fucking disheartening (whether volunteered fall or forced).

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:18:58

Planets - I'd have thought it would be possible to discuss that film, if you need to, but be very careful with the title and OP to avoid the misunderstanding I've deduced happened. I've not seen it, and have no intention of doing so, it might be good to warn people off it.

Ereshkigal Mon 04-Nov-19 18:20:04

Answer came there none.

I know. I've compromised with MTF trans person/people because it doesn't say woman or female in full. It's not ideal but it is an official term that most people generally understand.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:21:52

* That isn't my position, though. They are born and remain male.*

Well, yes, and afaik we're also allowed to state simple biological truth that mammals can't change sex.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:24:00

Why should Stop have to walk on eggshells like that though, just because this is the feminist board? Why is everyone else allowed to basically say what they like but the feminists have to be very very careful and remember to watch your tone young lady? This should be the space where women speak most freely.

BeMoreMagdalen Mon 04-Nov-19 18:27:30

Errol, when I am feeling sanguine, I take that pragmatic line, yes. But today I am having one of my intemperate 'why are we grateful for scraps while being coercively controlled?' moments. It will pass. I may be banned before it does, but, you know, genie out of the bottle now, and actually, MN isn't the only place we can discuss this now, thanks to some extremely brave lesbians breaking away from Stonewall, and some tenacious feminists pressing damned hard against closed doors until they open, the conversation is breaking out all over.
In light of that, the 'guidelines' begin to look much less benign, if they ever did.

zebrasdontwearbras Mon 04-Nov-19 18:27:57

Well M&S won't like what they read here, will they? But kow-towing to TRAs won't improve their profits - which I understand are in a bit of trouble at the moment.

I've noticed that Justine comes out with very brave statements in the press - about agreeing with freedom of speech, and the right of parents to discuss concerns about giving young children puberty blockers etc etc - but this bravery of Justine isn't actually translated into the moderation decisions. Some of the mod decisions have been very over-zealous recently - Orchid's being a particular example.

HQ's decision to let that thread stand - with a child - well, a minor certainly - a 16yr old posting on here pretending to be their parent - would not be allowed in any other circumstances on this forum. It is literally trolling - pretending to be someone you are not is against the guidelines as far as I knew.

Ridiculous that a) those threads both remain, and b) that orchid's banning was upheld.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:29:38

I'm still a bit confused as to who M&S think is going to buy anything other than their food if they drive all the mums away.

Carriemac Mon 04-Nov-19 18:31:38

Dear MNHQ,

Please remember that only women give birth - and that 'Mums' specifically refers to women.

Whilst the site has grown to include all sorts of other things, it would be a massive own goal to alienate your core readership - which is women.

Sincerely,
An adult human female.

testing987654321 Mon 04-Nov-19 18:31:48

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Mon 04-Nov-19 18:32:07

They also need to start explaining precisely what they're objecting to in comments they delete rather than a waffly "this breaks guidelines" with no explanation as to why

we can but dream...

I've been asking MNHQ to explain a recent deletion of mine They've stopped replying to my emails (interesting for a site that sets such store by civility in its users) so I guess I'll never know exactly what the problem is.

I have a creeping suspicion that it's because they don't know what the problem with the post was either. it's just that someone said jump and they said 'how high?'

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:32:31

I have to say, I am indeed feeling pretty bloody alienated right now! Even more so after reading Stop's story.

OhHolyJesus Mon 04-Nov-19 18:33:38

I've had a warning for that same phrase before (not saying it again now as I'm not clear of my 6 weeks yet) and I'm not taking the risk!

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:35:32

It's also interesting that when they're going to tell us something that's clearly outrageous, like that we're being punished for describing male people as male, the little note saying so tends to come from a generic "MNHQ" rather than a named person.

StopThePlanet Mon 04-Nov-19 18:36:22

ErrolTheDragon

Thanks for the advice! I do think it's important to forewarn people what is in the beginning of the film. I never read a synopsis prior to watching a film and rarely watch trailers (they give the best parts, sometimes the end away) but this is the first time that I have been met with something like this.

If I have some time this week I will write a new thread - it's just going to take a lot of thinking of how to put it together (again with even more word play) so FWR can talk about it without it getting flagged as being nefarious.

Datun Mon 04-Nov-19 18:37:48

They've painted themselves into a corner, for sure. But whilst they're in that corner, they have to make a decision, using some sort of criteria. I'm assuming.

And perhaps it's the difference between what feels general and and what feels personal.

For example, the difference between the connotations of the word man and male. Even though, they both derive from exactly the same thing.

Tim, or Trans identified man/male, they have decided is upsetting to trans people. So it can't be used.

Male born individual (say) is not such a catchall term, and is very much biology based. Of course, it's all exactly the same. But it's about them being able to make a decision.

Of course, we absolutely have to be able to acknowledge that transwomen are male. And they know that.

And although I wish it was otherwise, personally, I think it's worth giving HQ as much ammo as possible for them to deal with the spiteful targeting.

It's certainly a motivation for me, to be able to get across what the fuck I want, whilst knowing the guidelines are intact.

OhHolyJesus Mon 04-Nov-19 18:39:47

Have DM'd you Kittens I got a strike for the same phrase a while ago. I think it also spells a name I'm guessing is triggering...

FleetsumNJetsum Mon 04-Nov-19 18:43:44

me too, last week

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:47:16

Be careful not to put anything personal in DMs! As a result of Emmagate we know that any mod can read them, and at this point I'd be reluctant to assume that anything meant as private would be guaranteed to remain that way.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:47:48

StopThePlanet (hope no one minds the side-discussion, I was probably one of the few people who saw her deleted thread) - I'd suggest if you start another thread you don't do so in the evening. It's when trolls and troll hunters are active and experienced mods generally aren't. And the other thing is to somehow avoid advertising the wretched film to lowlifes iyswim.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Mon 04-Nov-19 18:49:16

further, we know that no record is made by the system when staff read PMs, so they can read them consequence free

AnyOldPrion Mon 04-Nov-19 18:50:31

And perhaps it's the difference between what feels general and and what feels personal.

Yup. I had used the phrase “male transitioners” on and off for a while with no problems. Then recently a post containing those words was removed. Turned out it was because I used them to describe a specific person, rather than as a general comment. The mod I asked was very polite.

The thing that struck me afterwards is that the trolls trawling the site for posts to take down know the rules and guidelines down to a T. Way better than many of us using the forum regularly know them.

And I thought to myself, that even though I spend a good deal of time discussing these issues, at least I’m not sad and pathetic enough to waste huge chunks of my life reading thousands of posts on a forum I despise in order to bully women discussing their rights.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:52:25

It's never even occurred to me to go pester TRAs on one of their forums because why would you do that? It takes a certain type of personality disorder to make that seem like a reasonable use of one's time, imo.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:53:34

* And perhaps it's the difference between what feels general and and what feels personal. *

Mostly it is, but rather explicitly in the section of clarification re 'tim' it's general.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:55:40

Just got this:
'Hi all, sorry for the mass mail,

Thank you for all your reports about that thread - we're looking now.

Best wishes,
MNHQ'

Well... I hope the rest of the 'mass' is you lot....!

StopThePlanet Mon 04-Nov-19 18:56:19

ErrolTheDragon

More good advice! I have to remember the time difference - I think I posted that thread in the evening for me which is late for the UK. I'm having lunch now and bet you are mostly all having/had dinner at this point.

As Errol said, please excuse the aside. flowers

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:57:35

Ah, so the monitors have noticed the thread and think it's an excellent opportunity to get me and others banned.

Still not pretending to agree with you!

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 19:04:30

Since apparently HQ are "taking a look" at the thread, I will summarize my point.

A. We should be allowed to refer to male people as male. "Trans identified male" is about the most neutral way one could choose to describe the people to whom it applies - it's not goady, it's just a way to let other people know which group of people you're talking about without being compelled to call them women.

B. You can't seriously think that everyone who comments here is going to read through each rule before making every comment to ensure that they aren't inadvertently breaking one? That's an unreasonable burden to place on users. Most of us are already self censoring to a significant degree in the attempt to stay onside - nobody can do that consistently at all times, especially given that the rules are clear as mud and contadict themselves

C. You are allowing people who are not even users to pick your most prominent users off one by one in an attempt to shut down debate. This really does not square with your public commitment to allowing debate to happen, and is also a terrible thing for any forum to allow.

D. Why are users not being told which part of a deleted comment was the issue? A vague "well this broke guidelines somehow" is not civil or helpful if your goal is to have the person avoid doing the same in future.

E. Refusing to state the specific problem would however make sense if your goal was to have users walking on eggshells at all times out of fear that something they say may be used to punish them. Is that your goal? If not, why are you treating users that way?

zebrasdontwearbras Mon 04-Nov-19 19:05:02

What? shock

LangCleg Mon 04-Nov-19 19:07:51

But today I am having one of my intemperate 'why are we grateful for scraps while being coercively controlled?' moments.

This is my permanent state of being.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 19:09:32

This is as temperate as I get I'm afraid...

Cohle Mon 04-Nov-19 19:09:36

It seems fairly ludicrous to think you shouldn't have to read or obey the talk guidelines when posting here because you think doing so represents an "unreasonable burden".

MNHQ have made their view on the use of the phrase "trans-identified male" very clear and have explained the reasons behind that opinion in some detail.

LangCleg Mon 04-Nov-19 19:10:09

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Fallingirl Mon 04-Nov-19 19:10:44

We have known for a while, that TRAs target individual posters, to have them banned one by one.

MNHQ cannot be ignorant to this. They will have to make a principled decision sooner or later on how to deal with this.

It’s already too late for ‘sooner’, so it is now high time they decide. -and I humbly suggest they should come down on the side of women, and especially women who have been propping up the site for years.

PencilsInSpace Mon 04-Nov-19 19:11:46

But if we call all trans people who are male 'trans women' or variations of that, we'll be misgendering a lot of them. That's bad isn't it Chole?

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Mon 04-Nov-19 19:12:30

I think my problem with what happened to Orchid is that it’s so disloyal

She was a proper mumsnetter, she’d been here 14 years, giving advice to new mothers and to women posting in relationships, plugging away, supporting women and, of course, generating site content

And she posts ‘how awful for you’ and is permanently banned for it

And it later transpires that the thread she was posting on was started by someone lying about their identity

She was the definition of a good faith poster and now she’s banned

It would be nice to know precisely what MNHQ want from posters

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 19:12:57

Bicker's post was brilliant and if I ran a platform I'd be proud to have it associated with me. Who doesn't want witty, intelligent users?

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 19:17:24

Something does seem to have gone very badly wrong with Orchid and those particular threads. Some of the lack of clarity in the guidelines is to allow for context (which I tend to think is a good thing, on the whole) but the context in this case sucks.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 19:19:10

Targeting. Someone/s apparently wanted Orchid gone and apparently from the perspective of HQ that person/those people are far more important than a loyal user who's been helpful to many other women like Orchid.

PencilsInSpace Mon 04-Nov-19 19:19:19

Something does seem to have gone very badly wrong with Orchid and those particular threads.

Yes.

MrGsFancyNewVagina Mon 04-Nov-19 20:01:28

I wonder if they have new trigger happy moderators? They seem to have doubled down in the deletions and there has definitely been an influx of TRA supporters recently. They will take one comment that they view as proof that women being ‘hysterical’ and comment continuously on that post in order to derail a thread. I’ve seen that happen over the last 24hrs. The TRAs are definitely trying to get rid of the posters they deem a threat.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 20:03:22

I'm looking at the M&S thread and parts of it are swiss cheese, with deletions for commenters who are typically moderate and polite. If this is a case of new mods then perhaps they should be let loose on a less contentious forum to start with, because right now they seem to be deleting anything that is complained about, and some people complain about everything.

SpartacusAutisticus Mon 04-Nov-19 20:17:06

I'm going to add, and hope that MNHQ see this, that when the new rules were instituted, lots of autistic and otherwise disabled posters raised concerns about struggling to comply and the added cognitive/language/communication burden this places on us. We argued that the rules weren't clear and that there was too much emphasis on context and intent, which made it even harder for us.

And, guess what? Hardly any of those posters are still around, on FWR anyway. I can barely be bothered to post as I don't want to risk a ban and lose my old names (MNHQ know who I am and what I've contributed to this site under old guises).

Ummmmcake Mon 04-Nov-19 20:26:59

Just a note to say that I agree with OP and I think that MNHQ should cater to women and not to other groups.

MrGsFancyNewVagina Mon 04-Nov-19 20:28:52

Of course, now that this thread has been posted we that have made comments will no doubt be stalked by the TRAs.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 20:30:17

Eh, most of us already were.

(Waves at Oflang)

Creepster Mon 04-Nov-19 20:43:26

MNHQ is incorrect with regard to most people identifying as the opposite sex rather than as transgender.

Creepster Mon 04-Nov-19 20:46:13

Targeting. Someone/s apparently wanted Orchid gone and apparently from the perspective of HQ that person/those people are far more important than a loyal user who's been helpful to many other women like Orchid.

WTF is going on with all this banning of women by mods who claim that it almost never happens? Are we being gaslit?

NotBadConsidering Mon 04-Nov-19 20:53:57

If FWR is going to have its own set of rules, and its own set of problems with TRA Monitors vexatiously reporting people, the FWR should have its own set of moderators who are carefully selected by Justine as being able to be fair in their application of the rules.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 20:59:37

Perhaps we can use this thread for everyone to post about questionable deletions and/or strikes they've received. Normally I'm too British to kick up a fuss, but doing so seems to have worked very well for the monitors, so if needs must then I suppose that's what we're going to have to do.

(Or the mods could just be reasonable and meet us halfway.)

Prawnofthepatriarchy Mon 04-Nov-19 21:03:20

This affects me a lot, SpartacusAutisticus. I have never found being circuitous easy. Or concealment/lying. I always wondered why DM always said I was more honest than she is (she's far more unselfish) and now I have an ASD diagnosis I know why.

If I want to reply to a thread these days I either post a very short comment or, if I really feel strongly, I have to allow a significant amount of time first to compose a post and then double and triple check it for guidelines breaches. This whole business has near enough silenced me. sad

zebrasdontwearbras Mon 04-Nov-19 21:05:16

It's awful that HQ will just throw their loyal users under the bus like this - and for what? A small number of very vocal transactivists, who demand that women don't discuss their rights, or the safeguarding of children.

Orchid had been here 14yrs? And gone after a completely innocuous comment.

I've been here for a decade (I can hardly believe that!) - but my username won't reflect that - because I've de-rgeged, and then re-regged several times. (after Jeff the hacker, after that intern published people's IP addresses on twitter, and when the lawyer-who-shall-no- be-named started demanding user's personal information in the court.)

MNHQ - you actually want to throw away your core users because they don't agree with gender ideology?? Your moderation in practice does not tally with Justine's statements in the press. This is not fair play IMO.

And Spartacus I agree with you.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 21:06:51

If I want to reply to a thread these days I either post a very short comment or, if I really feel strongly, I have to allow a significant amount of time first to compose a post and then double and triple check it for guidelines breaches. This whole business has near enough silenced me.

And that is a most excellent response to the comment I didn't respond to earlier because MN discourages trollhunting.

halo

NotTerfNorCis Mon 04-Nov-19 21:09:05

Also: it's fucking racist to compare black women to people who aren't women. RACIST. Are we not allowed to name racism if it offends the sacred caste?

Yeah. 'Black women are women in the same way males are women.' hmm

DetroitMotorCity Mon 04-Nov-19 21:10:39

I just wanted to add my support. I'm absolutely shocked at the heavy handed, anti actual real woman moderating.

Mumsnet might consider who they cater to and who has made them so successful before they alienate their core membership, if it's not already too late.

Solidarity, sisters.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 21:12:19

Indeed, Not. Maybe I should add that to my name - Given A Strike For Pointing Out That TRAs Are Being Racist.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 21:13:29

(And homophobic)

DetroitMotorCity Mon 04-Nov-19 21:22:07

Racist, misogynistic and deluded.

I don't see how tra's get away with their threats of physical violence towards people who won't participate in their delusion, but women get shut down for talking without threat or malice, just truth! It's not fair!

zebragotastrikeforquotingapost Mon 04-Nov-19 21:29:12

Like this kittens?

I thought we weren't meant to get strikes for quoting a post - but hey, make up the rules as we go along grin

I couldn't be arsed to argue it tbh.

zebragotastrikeforquotingapost Mon 04-Nov-19 21:30:48

Incidentally, there is another "zebra" posting on here all of a sudden - posting some pretty anti-women stuff. I'd like to point out that it is not me. I may have to adopt another animal now hmm

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 21:37:11

I do believe we were told that there would be no strikes for quoting posts, so we can add that to the list of questions for MNHQ, since they will apparently be taking a look at my terrible evil not properly female socialized into meek acceptance at all post.

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