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Trans chat

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MNHQ have commented on this thread.

Babyjakesmum Wed 16-Oct-19 19:10:09

I haven't been on Mumsnet in a while, but have dropped back in to see what was going on when I heard about the sponsors dropping Mumsnet because of anti-trans hate. I expected it to be a storm in a tea cup.

But sadly, I have to say that I find the level of bitter hatred on here to be utterly breathtaking. I have trans people in my family. I have friends who have trans people, and the way they are being discussed here is simply appalling.

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I used to come on here to talk about my babies and life as a Mum, and it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone. I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again. I cannot comprehend what has become of the people on here for this level of narrow mindedness to be flourishing.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life.

I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson and see what the reality is, except that I wouldn't want any vulnerable person subjected to this.... you also probably do already know a transperson somewhere in your life, but most don't wear a badge to tell you that because it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

Pota2 Wed 16-Oct-19 19:21:59

I think you get different levels here. My issue is not with trans people. It’s the ideology which keeps saying that we are hateful if we mention the word woman. That I am female because I feel female etc. For me, it’s not about being attacked but the risk is increasing because so many places are making everything unisex to avoid offending anyone. Maybe you think I am overreacting but I don’t think so. As I said, you get different levels and shades and not everyone on here is necessarily critical of gender ideology (which is the reason I am against the ideology that being female is a feeling). Trans people have existed and been protected for years with few issues but when people tell me that I am not allowed to use the word ‘female’ in my writing for my job, I am obvs going to get a bit narked.

Datun Wed 16-Oct-19 19:31:34

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born.

Could you explain how you interpret gender, on the basis of being a hard bitten feminist?

LemonScentedStickyBat Wed 16-Oct-19 19:31:35

I do have a trans woman in my life, who feels afraid to say what she thinks and feels (ie that she understands full well she is not a biological woman) because of the prevailing ideology. She needs unisex facilities for her safety but doesn’t think we need to lose single sex services. I know TRA’s think we make these friends up but I can assure you we don’t, they are just bullied into silence.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Wed 16-Oct-19 19:31:59

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson

I am under stonewalls trans umbrella, i agree with 80 to 90% of what is posted here. most people here have friends who are transgender.

I do not agree in any way shape or form with experimenting on vulnerable children or teaching them incorrect facts which lead to safeguarding being broken down.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Wed 16-Oct-19 19:33:44

mic drop I'm guessing

i'd love to hear how a hard bitten feminist defines gender, but I don't think I'll find out today

TiredofthisBS Wed 16-Oct-19 19:36:14

Perhaps you should actually read women's grievances instead of coming here to lecture us about how nasty we all are for caring about OUR rights.

LadyCarolinePooterVonThigh Wed 16-Oct-19 19:36:46

Thanks for the lecture, OP ,

maresedotes Wed 16-Oct-19 19:37:16

Apologies that you think we just want to talk about 'babies and life as a mum'. We're feminists who want to talk about how our safe spaces are being eroded and how we can't speak up for ourselves. We won't be silenced. So I suggest you jog on to another site.

NewarkShark Wed 16-Oct-19 19:39:19

I don’t think I have ever seen anyone on Mumsnet say all trans people are criminals - where did you see that comment OP?

I totally agree most trans people are not Karen Whites but people like that are the consequence of allowing self-ID into women’s prisons. As a feminist, how many rapes do you consider acceptable as collateral damage to avoid offending transgender women?

HandsOffMyRights Wed 16-Oct-19 19:39:27

Do you read the Trans Widows thread? Are your trans friends what we would know as 'old school' transsexuals OP?

I'm sorry, but I'm sceptical about this post as feminism centres women. Always. Whatever the era.

dolorsit Wed 16-Oct-19 19:39:28

I find your post hyperbolic.

A hard bitten feminist who's been campaigning since before half of us have been born? How old do you think we are?

Feeling unsafe on a website because some people disagree with you. Obviously not spent much time in 2nd wave spaces.

Also obviously not read many threads on the issue or you would realise half of your post is incorrect.

And finally telling us all off for being mean. How feminist of you.

OhHolyJesus Wed 16-Oct-19 19:39:38

If you've been away for a while OP, you have some things to catch up on! If you see "bitter hatred" I imagine you will want to find out why, where it originated from and what has been going on in your absence.

I stepped away from feminism to have a child and came back to find out that men can say they feel like a woman and that makes them a woman and nobody asked me if I was ok with that. I have since learnt about the GRA amongst other things and it's because of the posters here, not because I read about it in the local or national media.

I'm glad you're back OP, you've missed a lot!

Feel free to report any transphobia, I for one detest the ideology, misogyny, violence and threat of violence, the silencing of women (end of free speech), the experiments on children and the infiltration of our education system - but not the people.

Datun Wed 16-Oct-19 19:40:10

i'd love to hear how a hard bitten feminist defines gender, but I don't think I'll find out today

Nope. Even the smallest, simplest question will go unanswered.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Wed 16-Oct-19 19:40:19

trans people aren't [...] trying to undermine your own femininity

the secret fear of every feminist

Fraggling Wed 16-Oct-19 19:40:41

'I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born'

'Trans people aren't... trying to undermine your own femininity'

Lol good effort but 0/10 in the end.

Fraggling Wed 16-Oct-19 19:43:22

'One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.'

Kw is a bepenised rapist who was locked in with women, and as anyone could have predicted, sexually assaulted fellow inmates.

Way to miss the point.

StillWeRise Wed 16-Oct-19 19:46:43

OP you are very welcome to go to chat or AIBU or gardening where trans issues are rarely discussed. We tend to congregate here because ut's one of the very few spaces we have where we can say no, actually, a trans woman is not a woman. And where we can discuss our fears for our children (especially those who are LBT or gender non conforming)

If you've really been away for a while, maybe look at some of the more basic threads and you 'll start to see why we are where we are. I ignored all this for ages because it only ever got discussed in the context of women's sport, and because I have zero interest in womens- or any- sport, I never found out what the issues were yill the whole thing with the GRA kicked off.

But basically, if you really are a feminist,ask yourself
what is a woman?
what is sex?
what is gender?
why are women oppressed?

SimplyTheWorst Wed 16-Oct-19 19:47:03

OP Perhaps have a read of the three Trans Widows threads here in Mumsnet?

littlbrowndog Wed 16-Oct-19 19:48:47

You are just elitist. Op

You never commented on the fact that it cost Collette Walker 1300 £ to go to snp conference.

She had to pay for a sight guide and accommodation

But you voted at conference so you mus5 have been able to afford it

Diversity and equality only for the rich

And then you slag off women here. Jeez.

ThePankhurstConnection Wed 16-Oct-19 19:56:08

It no longer feels safe for anyone.

With all due respect, it isn't supposed to be - it's a forum not a panic room or padded cell. Additionally no one here has actually harmed anyone via discussion. I think there is a real problem generally today to see words as weapons as dangerous as actual violence and sure they can hurt feelings but they are NOT violence. The great thing about the internet/twitter/MN/FB is the fact you can just delete accounts/ avoid them/ don't go online at all.

Mandatorymongoose Wed 16-Oct-19 19:58:53

Ah OP, glad you're here! Since you have been a feminist since before I was born seems somewhat unlikely but ok maybe you can help me out?

What is the purpose of sex segregation in services such as those you mentioned earlier? Prisons etc.? Why do we have sex specific health services?

As a follow up - how does announcing you are of the opposite gender negate that purpose?

And on a basic feminist level, what is it / does it mean to feel like a woman without resorting to the gender stereotypes imposed by the patriarchal society that we have spent years fighting against?

If you would be so kind.

JoyceJeffries Wed 16-Oct-19 19:59:20

Women - know your place.

slipperywhensparticus Wed 16-Oct-19 20:01:13

Think about what your saying here

Is it kind?

HeadintheiClouds Wed 16-Oct-19 20:05:18

What exactly doesn’t “feel safe” to you, op? Bizarre statement to make about a talk forum. But actually, could you answer the define gender question first?
Haha, as if you’re coming back...

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