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Non binary 12 year old on Today Program

(85 Posts)
PancakeAndKeith Thu 10-Oct-19 07:55:23

Quick post as I’m getting ready for work.

Boy said he was non binary and talked about how he didn’t feel that he fitted in.
However everyone referred to him by a male name and called him him.

It struck me that he was a very articulate and sensitive boy who was never going to fit in with the standard idea of masculinity. I wonder if he is struggling and the more gendered world of high school.

It’s a shame that children like him feel that they have to tie themselves in knots just because they don’t fit in with a stereotype.

BarbariansMum Thu 10-Oct-19 09:03:18

Dont kid yourself @LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD They might have let me climb trees but I wasnt allowed play football, or study graphic design, or woodwork (it was textile or parentcraft for girls), and computer club was only for the boys. Meanwhile the choir was girls only, drums were the only instrument boys ever played and any boy who tried to join a ballet or tap class would probably have been kicked to death on the playground.

TheRollingCrone Thu 10-Oct-19 09:03:20


SisterWendyBuckett Thu 10-Oct-19 09:04:07

Stephanie D-A was fab - respectful but very clear about the difference between sex and gender.

terryleather Thu 10-Oct-19 09:07:52

Just caught the end of this.

Stephanie came over very well as she always does and got some great points in.

The interviewer asked about pressure groups with an agenda being in schools - I was quite surprised by that what with it being the BBC - however the headteacher present seemed to dismiss that suggestion hmm

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Thu 10-Oct-19 09:08:09

I did techy drawing and physics... Girls and boys had to do sewing and woodwork...I never liked footie ( or did my brother) or hockey/netball for that matter (played netball and threw javelin/ran for the school - I got to throw javelin with the boys class. I also studied graphics afterwards.

I was actually a very girly wee girl too! Then I became very Feminist (when it was for the girls)...

I’d prefer to kick against sexism than all this nonsense today to be honest.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Thu 10-Oct-19 09:09:10

☝🏻I do appreciate that even though this was AFN, deepest Scotland, I was luckier than a lot of girls. My big big sister now drives tractors.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Thu 10-Oct-19 09:11:48

Girls did tech, boys home ec in my day.

But, when it came to PE no football or rugby for girls (which didn't bother me as I hate team sports) yet they made us play mixed hockey!

Nor were girls considered capable of running 400m for some reason. 200m and 800m were deemed OK for girls but not 400m. Never did really understand that one.

PaleBlueMoonlight Thu 10-Oct-19 09:15:02

That was really good. Stephanie really knows her stuff. The head bloke did not seem as well informed.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole Thu 10-Oct-19 09:24:44

Beware of rose tinted hindsight. My friends and I successfully campaigned to be allowed to do woodwork/TD/metalwork at secondary in the early eighties. Much to the chagrin of the boys who were suddenly required to study cooking & needlework.

But it was a limited victory. I was excluded from share club and computer programming.

And for all the love of Bowie and Adam Ant, Boy George was routinely referred to by some very in PC names and very few gay actors and pop stars were able to be open about their sexuality.

It was - and still is - hard when children don't fit the approved stereotype. And that shames all of us.

OrchidInTheSun Thu 10-Oct-19 09:29:23

Wow @terryleather - I noticed that. Nick Robinson was definitely making a point there. Good for him.

Wait for the TRA complaints to start pouring in

MouthyHarpy Thu 10-Oct-19 09:37:08

It struck me that he was a very articulate and sensitive boy who was never going to fit in with the standard idea of masculinity. I wonder if he is struggling and the more gendered world of high school

I just thought he is a victim of the mudding of sex and gender. And that a good feminist explanation, emphasising to him that he doesn't have to conform to any gender roles or stereotypes, would help him.

He sounded very bright but confused and very very young. I wondered about a borderline ASD.

He's obviously pre-pubescent. What will happen when the testosterone surges and he discovers himself as a sexual being? and that he might be attracted to other - sexed - humans? He might be gay, which is not a non-binary position.

I mean non-binary is bolleaux but I'm trying to start where he is. Because, it must be so so so difficult for parents and family who love their child, but need to help him adjust to the world and his body.

They need to look at "gender non-forming" not non-binary.

terryleather Thu 10-Oct-19 09:37:38

Ah it was NR I wasn't sure who it was..thanks Orchid.

I'm still hmmat the head teacher not thinking that pressure groups in schools could be a problem but glad NR at least raised the question.

The TAs live to froth so they will do what they do as ever!

SarahTancredi Thu 10-Oct-19 09:40:13

If theres a catch up link of the segments please can someone link.

SisterWendyBuckett Thu 10-Oct-19 09:45:45

* He might be gay, which is not a non-binary position.*

Loads of non-binary people are in gay relationships! Non-
binary is the 'gender', not the sexual preference.

MouthyHarpy Thu 10-Oct-19 09:46:07

He is a child. He has come across this idea and thinks ‘I don’t fit in with boys, must be a ‘they’ then’*

Yes, @LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD . I keep on thinking that there's a basic contradiction in this non-binary claim, and also transgender claims. Both actually play into a binary notion of sex and gender while trying to reject them.

If, as a man, you don't feel you fit into the gender role of masculinity as constructed at this particular historical moment then the non-binary & trans logic seems to be that therefore, you must be female/feminine.

I mean, HOW much more binary can you be? How much more sucked into a stupid limited notion of what it is to be HUMAN.

OrchidInTheSun Thu 10-Oct-19 09:49:36

The boy who thinks he's non binary was on about 7.45, Steph was on just before 9

SisterWendyBuckett Thu 10-Oct-19 09:50:02

As MouthHarpy says, it's a load of old (queer) bolleaux.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 10-Oct-19 09:50:45

I never doubted I was a girl because from about 9 I was mad on riding and no boys hung out at the stables. I loved learning to control a large, strong yet responsive animal. You feel very powerful. It's exhilarating. It was the only sport I've ever been any good at. When I was older I taught it and led pony treks during my summer holidays. It was fab.

I grew up when men wore eyeliner and had lovely long hair. DH had long hair and men with hair tumbling over their shoulders still give me the fanny gallops. grin

I also benefited from attending an all girls school where girls could be good at science and gendered expectations were slightly less.

We were split into an upper and lower set. The lower set did Domestic Science. I was in the upper set and we did Latin, which has proved useful in many contexts. Nobody did wood or metalwork.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Thu 10-Oct-19 09:51:38

I guess you can say that you don't really fit into any gender stereotypes (but then isnt not fitting into a gender also a gender group?), but you cant say 'i have no bio sex'.

We distinguish between boys and girls, men and women - sometimes for rubbish reasons but sometimes for some very good reasons. Yes, question the rubbish reasons but don't try it on by calling a male a female SEX and demand access to the ladies loos, or pretend that 'were all the same'.

MouthyHarpy Thu 10-Oct-19 09:54:02

Loads of non-binary people are in gay relationships! Non-binary is the 'gender', not the sexual preference.

Most of the gay people I know (men & women) say that they are attracted to a specific sexed body.

Interestingly, as a side note, I don't know any gay man (with whom I"e discussed this) who would consider a transman as a sexual partner ...

OrchidInTheSun Thu 10-Oct-19 09:56:37

So on that link, at 1.43 and 2.53 smile

SisterWendyBuckett Thu 10-Oct-19 10:00:28

Most of the gay people I know (men & women) say that they are attracted to a specific sexed body.

This is the issue isn't it. If you haven't been infiltrated by queer theory then you will of course say your choice of partner is based on sexual attraction.

If you believe in the gender fairy, then you'll say something rather different regardless of the biological reality.

BarbariansMum Thu 10-Oct-19 10:31:43

Most people are attracted to a specifically sexed body. The reason I sleep solely with men is because I fancy their bodies - it's not that they ubiquitously have better personalities than women, or make better conversation or can carry heavier loads.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Thu 10-Oct-19 10:34:29

Most people are attracted to a specifically sexed body

Indeed. That's why it is known as Sexuality not genderuality.

I'm attracted to the male sex, not masculinity.

TemporaryPermanent Thu 10-Oct-19 10:36:48

I do wonder about the influence of porn. I had some porn around me as a kid which was arousing but tended to make me think I must be a lesbian as all the porn I saw objectified women. If you just haven't reached the point of regular sexual feelings, or aren't particularly sexually focused except on people you love, if the lads around you are already sharing hellish violent porn I can see anyone withdrawing from the whole idea of being male.

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