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Bunbury's guide to community disruptors part 4

(309 Posts)
BarbaraStrozzi Fri 13-Sep-19 08:33:03

Thought it was time for another of these. I'll just cut-and-paste the opening of the last thread:

The useful Bunbury Guide to Spotting Community Disruptors is constantly evolving.

The best research and advice is not to engage with community disruptors and trolls. As ever, if you suspect troll activity, report it to MNHQ.

This is a continuation of the first Public Service Announcement thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3438714-Bunbury-s-Public-Service-Announcement-2

Thread 3 was deleted with this note from MNHQ; We're sure there will be a Bunbury 4 around soon, but we'd be grateful if we could draw a line under the issues raised in this thread if there's to be a new one.

If and when you see threads plopped into FWR, especially a curious repeat of well worn topics, maybe check for poster history before engaging.

There are a number of posts/posters/threads that are reproduced on Twitter or Facebook to foment controversy using screen shots & flagging to either MNHQ to have threads or posters deleted. Sometimes, it’s used to approach commissioning editors with ideas for articles. It’s a tiresome tactic that we’ve had several community disruptor posters who themselves post the comments that they then highlight elsewhere as purported evidence of racism, religious intolerance, anti-men sentiments, or transphobia.

Some helpful links can be found in the first posts on thread 2 (linked above) but in essence FermatsTheorem recommended “that in the absence of a block/hide poster button, I suggest the following strategy (given that you're talking to the lurkers).

Do not name check the sealion. Instead, respond to a depersonalised paraphrase:

"It is sometimes erroneously suggested that blah. Blah is wrong for the following reasons (short and pithy). If you need more information re. debunking blah, here's a link."

Then (this next step is important to combat derailment) go back up thread to the last useful contribution to the discussion, make sure you do name check that contributor, and pick up the discussion from that point.”

TinselAngel Fri 13-Sep-19 08:35:39

Checking in for duty and promising not to accidentally get this one deleted.

OhHolyJesus Fri 13-Sep-19 08:37:48

I've lurked previously and ended missing a lot, so saying hello, hoping to learn to spot disrupters as I've fallen for it in the past.

BarbaraStrozzi Fri 13-Sep-19 08:39:05

And here's another top tip: if a thread gets monopolised by one poster such that every other post/third post is by the same person, relentlessly pushing a contrarian view over a matter of hours, this poster is unlikely to be in good faith.

There are some who would argue that this is simply because it's hard pushing a contrary view in an environment that is hostile.

But they're wrong. Think about how someone in good faith who is genuinely heavily invested in an issue behaves when in an environment where they're not being listened to. (We've all been there - trying to explain a health condition to a bunch of people who think it's all in our mind, or an issue about our child's education where we know they have a specific learning difficulty, but the Daily Mail readers come out in force to insist we're just making excuses for them being thick and lazy, or a childbirth issue where HCPs failed us... plenty of examples).

You put your point across - you get belittled or ignored. You try again. You maybe get over-invested in the thread and lose your temper. Fairly soon, you get so upset you have to hide a thread.

What someone genuinely invested in an issue does not do in a contrarian environment is soldier on for hour after hour, repeating the same point, seemingly never getting tired, never trying a new tack, never getting upset, never actually engaging with the opposing point of view, simply repeating the same points like a stuck record. That is not the mark of someone genuinely pushing their view. That is the mark of someone who is getting off on deliberately shit stirring and disrupting.

StopThePlanet Fri 13-Sep-19 08:42:30

Checking in, needed the reminder. Many thanks flowers

LangCleg Fri 13-Sep-19 09:25:40

Checking in!

DickKerrLadies Fri 13-Sep-19 09:34:05

That is not the mark of someone genuinely pushing their view. That is the mark of someone who is getting off on deliberately shit stirring and disrupting.

YY

ThePankhurstConnection Fri 13-Sep-19 09:36:25

Good morning everyone.

boldlygoingsomewhere Fri 13-Sep-19 09:39:37

That is not the mark of someone genuinely pushing their view. That is the mark of someone who is getting off on deliberately shit stirring and disrupting.

Yep! It’s bloody frustrating to wade through too. I think most lurkers can see it for what it is, especially if they’ve been around these boards for a while.

Datun Fri 13-Sep-19 09:43:16

Useful update with the last para.

Checking in too.

CherryForFirstMinister Fri 13-Sep-19 10:09:30

That is not the mark of someone genuinely pushing their view. That is the mark of someone who is getting off on deliberately shit stirring and disrupting.

This.

Stripper thread is a classic example.

The re-routing/dodging of attempted derails I learned here is popular and works. Bold and paste the last relevant post and stick with the original topic ignoring the disruptor.

TheAlternativeTentacle Fri 13-Sep-19 10:12:28

<slides clocking in card into machine>

<slopes off to the kitchen to make a latte>

littlbrowndog Fri 13-Sep-19 10:17:46

💪

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer Fri 13-Sep-19 10:28:05

Yo 😎

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer Fri 13-Sep-19 10:29:18

Oooh tentacle ive got a latte as well!

<Ruins attempted cool image>

Ereshkigal Fri 13-Sep-19 11:10:32

Reporting for duty.

ThePankhurstConnection Fri 13-Sep-19 11:34:34

Stripper thread is a classic example.

The re-routing/dodging of attempted derails I learned here is popular and works. Bold and paste the last relevant post and stick with the original topic ignoring the disruptor.

I know - you are right of course but it was hard to resist. It was the lure of an old skool derailer - I got nostalgic.

Datun Fri 13-Sep-19 12:24:27

I was a little fascinated tbh. Watching the misogyny spew out, then the denial. People are so unaware.

littlbrowndog Fri 13-Sep-19 13:10:44

My post was picked apart lol

littlbrowndog Fri 13-Sep-19 13:11:28

I couldn’t be arsed to answer

SpartacusAutisticus Fri 13-Sep-19 13:15:56

Place marking brew

BarbaraStrozzi Fri 13-Sep-19 14:59:12

I don't think your post was picked apart LBD. That would imply that our new gyrating visitor had decent arguments. More that it was gish-galloped (buried under a huge avalanche of random and unrelated points in the hope that you'd give up).

These MRA types love a good Gish Gallop.

stealthsquirrelnutkin Fri 13-Sep-19 15:08:12

Bold and paste the last relevant post and stick with the original topic ignoring the disruptor.

Think I'll just print that out and mark it with highlighter before sticking it to the side of the laptop screen.

NotAtMyAge Fri 13-Sep-19 15:29:36

Good to be reminded of the collective experience.

truthisarevolutionaryact Fri 13-Sep-19 15:31:37

That thread is such a stunning example of everything stated on this one - with a massive dose of woman hating and misogyny added in.

Datun Fri 13-Sep-19 15:31:49

Gish gallop. That's interesting.

I'm guessing that, during an argument for being pro stripping, is where the accusation of middle management came in 😆

birdsdestiny Fri 13-Sep-19 15:32:43

In some ways I find the fact that people are keeping an eye on the prostitution/porn threads more worrying than the monitoring by TRAs.

ErrolTheDragon Fri 13-Sep-19 15:34:43

Or if you can't wade back far enough to find the last relevant post, you can sometimes find more in the OP to explore.

BarbaraStrozzi Fri 13-Sep-19 15:38:16

Yes, birds. I read the MRA-sympathisers that pop up on threads about industrialised sexual abuse of women as really quite sinister (and they do monitor and send out the bat signal).

I work in an area of science that is prone to become highly politicised, so we see enormous amounts of paid astroturfing when we do public outreach efforts. You start to recognise the hallmarks of a paid astroturfer quite readily (they pop up on here before elections too, then mysteriously disappear immediately afterwards).

The pro-rape lobby always come across to me as paid astroturfers; the TRAs I think genuinely believe what they spout (and of course are highly invested in it, because without the rest of us to indulge the delusion, their world really does come crashing down).

So while I disagree vehemently with the TRAs, and see them as doing untold damage to women's rights, they are like religious zealots. They actually believe. The MRA astroturfers on the other hand are doing it because their profits might get eaten into.

Grimbles Fri 13-Sep-19 15:50:11

Whenever a disruptor arrives, or is suspected, it's always best to think what would Bunbury do (WWBD) before engaging.

Although I cant claim to be an expert, I suspect Prof. Bunbury would find such transparent attempts at disrupting beneath making an effort to respond.

birdsdestiny Fri 13-Sep-19 15:50:35

You articulated my unease perfectly Barbara, thanks.

Inebriati Fri 13-Sep-19 15:55:34

<punches card>

BazzleJet Fri 13-Sep-19 17:29:45

What's astroturfing? I'm getting my head round a lot of the lingo bit by bit from Lurkers' Corner, but I can't remember this one. I think I've just cracked sealioning having seen it in action recently. Thanks 😁

GrinitchSpinach Fri 13-Sep-19 17:37:42

industrialised sexual abuse of women
Such a perfect, succinct way to describe it, Barbara. Wow. Will save for future arguments.

Bazzle, astroturfing is when people are paid to pretend online to be actual grassroots supporters of a cause. This shady tactic has been used in a number of political areas.

BazzleJet Fri 13-Sep-19 17:44:17

Thank you Grinitch

Weezol Fri 13-Sep-19 17:48:03

<puts kettle on and gets out the 6 pint tea pot >

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop Fri 13-Sep-19 17:59:43

Thanks Barbara.
This a good way to start the day.

BarbaraStrozzi Fri 13-Sep-19 18:06:11

If you want an insight into astroturfing, Bazzle, Merchants of Doubt is a fascinating book (primarily on big tobacco and big oil using various underhand tactics including astroturfing, setting up supposedly "independent" think tanks, funding research, sneaking op-ed pieces into newspapers, weaponising media outlets' committment to "balanced reporting" to make sure that they had someone on every programme, all in order to cast doubt on smoking causing cancer and anthropogenic climate change, respectively).

www.merchantsofdoubt.org/

Also germane to Brexit, the last American election, in fact pretty much any issue in the public eye.

Ereshkigal Fri 13-Sep-19 19:21:08

This article is very long but a good article about astroturfing in trans politics.

https://medium.com/*@sue*.donym1984/inauthentic-selves-the-modern-lgbtq-movement-is-run-by-philanthropic-astroturf-and-based-on-junk-d08eb6aa1a4b

Melroses Fri 13-Sep-19 20:40:16

Erishkigal - that is the same author who wrote The Elephant in the Room - a fine piece of work that answered so many questions for me.

I need a latte now but it is too close to bedtime sad

BazzleJet Fri 13-Sep-19 21:45:50

Good heavens! Lots of reading. Thanks very much

GirlDownUnder Sat 14-Sep-19 06:32:04

brew morning all

MN has been making me ‘mad at the internet’ what with random deletions and banning and gagging orders, then we lost MB and we seem to have new zealous monitors. But you know what - going dark doesn’t help us, it let’s oppressors win.

I’ll try and stay in the light.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Sat 14-Sep-19 08:48:59

I'm on my second cafetiere this morning

fuelled by caffeine and rage against the machine, and checking in

birdsdestiny Sat 14-Sep-19 09:11:26

My first reaction was to leave, beyond furious, but it gives them what they want.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Sat 14-Sep-19 09:15:34

Morning, lovely non disruptors! Just popping in before presumably being hit with the "go well" of bloody hell why won't she just do what she's told. I see that the attempts to disrupt, distract, and generally make using the board too much of a nuisance to bother with continue, and would like to reiterate that grey rocks are useful things.

Datun Sat 14-Sep-19 09:18:15

Wotcha prod. Good to see you.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Sat 14-Sep-19 09:37:49

I'm on my second cafetiere this morning

Currently consuming the croissant and cream cheese of irritation.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole Sat 14-Sep-19 20:18:01

I've been out all day and just had a look what's going on.

It's like the embarrassing uncle had turned up uninvited.

TinselAngel Sat 14-Sep-19 22:13:22

Bump

People who come on here seemingly randomly with accusations of transphobia are probably trying to distract you from discussing the topic that the thread is about.

BarbaraStrozzi Sat 14-Sep-19 22:16:52

You don't say, Tinsel. grin

But you're right: a timely reminder to ignore and namecheck the last positive contribution.

NotTerfNorCis Sun 15-Sep-19 00:07:46

Think I just had my first 'debate' with a sealion over on AIBU. hmm

TheProdigalKittensReturn Sun 15-Sep-19 01:57:07

Beware of short men under the bridge tonight, someone might trip!

Ali1cedowntherabbithole Sun 15-Sep-19 07:37:14

Hope you are OK NotTerf I was avoiding bumping the thread and giving attention. But I’ve also resolved to be cautious next time I see an improbable OP, in case it’s the same tactic.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Sun 15-Sep-19 07:39:18

Would responding to a sealion with "arf arf" be considered a deleteable and strikeable offense on AIBU? I'm sure it would be here, if a person who feels they have a gender identity complained.

truthisarevolutionaryact Sun 15-Sep-19 07:51:12

I was also watching that Notterf
It did occur to me how very similar your sealion on that thread is to a previous poster on here - a roly..... who used to post endless streams of drivel that completely convoluted and sucked the energy (not to mention the meaning) out of a thread.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole Sun 15-Sep-19 07:52:13

Sometimes sea lions sound like they’re barking.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Sun 15-Sep-19 07:55:18

I tend to assume that all disruptors return with new names almost immediately. Many of them have distinctive posting styles.

SophoclesTheFox Sun 15-Sep-19 08:14:00

Happy Sunday, everyone grin

truthisarevolutionaryact Sun 15-Sep-19 08:23:48

Happy Sunday Sophocles!
With both the Mail and the Sunday Times carrying gc articles, I started my morning nodding in agreement.

NotTerfNorCis Sun 15-Sep-19 08:56:12

It did occur to me how very similar your sealion on that thread is to a previous poster on here

Maybe! When it finally twigged that this person was 'sealioning' and not just thick as mince, two or three other people jumped in to confirm it... don't think I'll be engaging with that person again!

birdsdestiny Sun 15-Sep-19 08:57:39

The Sunday Times seems to be continuing their analysis of the issue without Gilligan, I always assumed it was led by him but perhaps it is a Times decision.

NeurotrashWarrior Sun 15-Sep-19 09:01:42

I think a few journalists are joining forces so to speak; Euan (Ewan?) Wrote a piece on a tra book for children in schools for the telegraph this week.

NotAtMyAge Sun 15-Sep-19 16:43:05

The Sunday Times seems to be continuing their analysis of the issue without Gilligan, I always assumed it was led by him but perhaps it is a Times decision.

He was a significant part of it, but by no means the whole. There are several journalists/columnists in the Times/ST stable who have written good stuff on the issues over the years.

2BthatUnnoticed Sun 15-Sep-19 23:43:09

Did the thread about moderation disappear? Perhaps as a result of reinstating the deleted thread which it was about ?

Ereshkigal Sun 15-Sep-19 23:56:52

No it's still there in my "threads I'm on". Last posted on early this morning.

Ereshkigal Sun 15-Sep-19 23:58:01

This one? http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3691709-Hey-FWR-We-need-both-sides-to-live-with-some-compromise

2BthatUnnoticed Mon 16-Sep-19 06:20:24

Oops sorry, yes that’s it - thank you flowers

LangCleg Mon 16-Sep-19 22:15:14

Tiresome.

BarbaraStrozzi Mon 16-Sep-19 22:20:08

Even at the price of missing the sloe gin recipes, I have resorted to the hide thread button. Much as it pains me to entertain suspicions of people who may well be perfectly above board and acting from the most earnest and blameless of motives, nonetheless I am not quite able to shake the suspicion that there may be people around who are not posting in good faith.

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer Mon 16-Sep-19 22:24:10

I’m feeling a bit guilty about derailing the thread

But i think someone derailed before me so its only a bit guilty

TinselAngel Mon 16-Sep-19 22:26:34

Is it the right time of year for Sloe gin making?

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer Mon 16-Sep-19 22:28:11

Yes it is tinsel

But a lot of sloe berrys have gone from our favourite haunt

I do live in quite a middle class area though 😀 so every bugger is probably at it

Datun Mon 16-Sep-19 22:28:25

We used to make sloe gin, years ago, and it was lovely. I don't know why we stopped.

(may be hangover related).

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer Mon 16-Sep-19 22:29:23

Seem to be a lot of blackberries around for black berry gin

I do have some sloes in the freezer...i just don’t think i need 3 bottles of sloe gin

Or maybe i do

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 16-Sep-19 22:31:52

There's a hide thread button??!

I remain as baffled as ever as to what people who spend endless amounts of time hanging out in a space full of people they think are horrible trying to persuade those people to change completely get out of that behavior. Has their experience been that if you walk into a room and go "I hate the wallpaper and the furniture is dire, someone else should fix that" people do so just because they asked? Even if the other people liked the original decor?

BarbaraStrozzi Mon 16-Sep-19 22:36:41

I remain as baffled as ever as to what people who spend endless amounts of time hanging out in a space full of people they think are horrible trying to persuade those people to change completely get out of that behavior.

That's because you're making the mistake of taking what they say is their motivation for their actual motivation.

Their actual motivation is a thread-length passive aggressive way of saying "you're all big horrible meanies." Then enjoying when people get defensive.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 16-Sep-19 22:37:08

Derailing is better than groundhog day, imo.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 16-Sep-19 22:37:48

If we responded with "well you're a whiny baby" we'd get deleted, wouldn't we?

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer Mon 16-Sep-19 22:39:38

I remain as baffled as ever as to what people who spend endless amounts of time hanging out in a space full of people they think are horrible trying to persuade those people to change completely get out of that behavior.

I dont really understand

There are a number of posters that i dont want to engage with and i ignore them...i find them unpleasant and rude and I ignore them

So if a poster finds some of the requlars unpleasant and rude, why dont they just ignore them

Unless of course they dislike everyone on FWR,..in which case they are bang out of luck

LangCleg Mon 16-Sep-19 22:41:47

I remain as baffled as ever as to what people who spend endless amounts of time hanging out in a space full of people they think are horrible trying to persuade those people to change completely get out of that behavior.

It's the current favoured Bunbury MO, I'm afraid.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 16-Sep-19 22:41:56

It'd be like me going to a rugby match even though I hate rugby and then complaining about why nobody was playing tennis.

popehilarious Mon 16-Sep-19 22:48:45

I dunno, I can sort of see how that person got their back up but they didn't help themselves. Maybe I assume too much good faith. I think posting to the point then disengaging was a good tactic (lang!).

Probably not wording that too well. I think there is a certain amount of thick skin needed for MN in general and when you're the target of many posts even if well-intended it can begin to feel a bit overwhelming if you're of a sensitive sort or not really used to it (again, projecting from my own experiences both here and elsewhere). In that case it can help for any poster feeling got-at to actually take a break rather than defend every point.

TinselAngel Mon 16-Sep-19 22:49:09

Or me going onto an R n B forum and berating them for not talking about prog rock?

LangCleg Mon 16-Sep-19 22:51:10

The current favoured mode of disruption is to post the same complaint over and over again with some DARVO victim narrative thrown in. Thread after thread to 40 pages with it.

Draw your own conclusions about today!

BarbaraStrozzi Mon 16-Sep-19 22:51:45

May I refer my fellow Bunburyists to my second post on page one, especially the final paragraph?

littlbrowndog Mon 16-Sep-19 22:54:37

I call it being a whiny fucker

popehilarious Mon 16-Sep-19 22:56:51

what do you call someone who tries to find middle ground on the 'middle ground' thread, cos i think that's me grin

LangCleg Mon 16-Sep-19 22:58:27

Prolonging the agony?

popehilarious Mon 16-Sep-19 23:00:10

sad

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 16-Sep-19 23:02:54

I call that unrealistically optimistic.

LangCleg Mon 16-Sep-19 23:08:30

Look, some people are just putting their heads above the parapet and want to engage in good faith. Some just want to disrupt the board. It takes a while to get the hang of it but once you have the difference is blindingly obvious. As you can see from Barbara's second post on the thread.

popehilarious Mon 16-Sep-19 23:09:37

I've only just clicked into some of the other FWR threads from today so some things become clearer. I wasn't bringing anything from other threads into this one so just took it at face value. Can see why the same subject playing repeatedly contributed to the middle ground thread going the way it did. (I don't think (?) it was the same posters but it's one of the downsides of communication via forum that the voices tend to blur, at least in my experience)

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 16-Sep-19 23:11:49

Also if someone is getting themselves stuck in a negative behavioral loop it's not actually anyone else's job to get them out of it, and if they're flailing and kicking at anyone who does try then most will just give up.

LangCleg Mon 16-Sep-19 23:16:10

Pope - you're not listening. It's not today. It's every day. Why else do you think Bunbury is on its fourth thread?

FWR is plagued by deliberate forum disruptors. Stick around long enough and you'll spot them on page one of a thread too.

popehilarious Mon 16-Sep-19 23:22:07

I know, I'm usually the one despairing that people don't ignore obvious derailers.

Honestly, in this case, what the OP and some of what Novembers said resonated with me, in that I've felt the same before. And for me it only took one or two posters (probably you, lang!) to post quick, direct and to-the-point comments that put me on the right path.
So, I personally felt they were unlikely to be deliberate disruptors, although one has - intentionally or not - become one. I don't mind if we disagree on this particular point of where to stop engaging. but I'm leaving it for now.

BickerinBrattle Tue 17-Sep-19 02:20:25

Well, I added to the thread before I saw this one.

Next time I’ll check this one first.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Tue 17-Sep-19 04:01:54

Really though? Are we sure the reason women don't have rights isn't because feminists are mean? What about if the person insisting so for the 587th time is in a boat on a moat while wearing a coat?

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer Tue 17-Sep-19 07:52:24

pope

If its any help i tend to do the same thing

I tend to take people at face value and at one point i ...(nicely!) told a poster that i felt that ‘the distrupter’ wasnt being threatening that he was just misunderstood

Oh the shame...the crosspost from the threatening disrupter left no doubt

TheProdigalKittensReturn Tue 17-Sep-19 07:56:25

Today's theme seems to be "at one point I entered a conversation here and wasn't given the deference that I feel I deserve, and I've been on an Inigo Montoya like quest for revenge ever since".

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer Tue 17-Sep-19 07:58:48

My name is inigo montoya

You killed my father

Prepare to die

(You were mean to me on a feminism thread doesnt have the same ring, so i stuck with the original quote)

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