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"Let trans men be fem" what does this mean?

(61 Posts)
TheMessyCleaner Tue 10-Sep-19 15:38:07

Ok so I wouldn't put myself firmly in either camp, I'm pretty sure some of my friends would say I'm transphobic' but honestly I'm just curious about why we need labels.
One of my daughter's friends mums identifies as 'non binary' yet I've never seen her without a skirt on or make up or long hair worn in a traditionally feminine style. She's in a long term relationship with a man, her daughter is very 'girly' in terms of dress and is not old enough to dress herself so I presume this is the mum's choice of clothes etc.
We are friends on Facebook and she constantly posts memes from a group named 'let trans men be fem.' I thought this was first about m-f trans women but no it appears to be aimed at women who identify as male who want to still be feminine. I try to be accepting but honestly wtf.
If we just got rid of all those silly labels (cis, terf, non binary) then we could all just be hot girls who want to wear eyelashes and nails and also want to fuck other hot girls or guys from time to time or wear a suit to a wedding or have short hair or do whatever the hell we wanted!
Yes no one understands trans men who want to be feminine because it's a stupid idea that biological sex has anything to do with what we wear or want to rub bits with. Can't we just be us?

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Tue 10-Sep-19 15:52:44

Sounds like attention seeking. I'd 'unfriend' her or whatever it is you do on Facebook (I don't use it).

I'm beginning to think the best thing to do with such people is ignore them, as you would a spoiled toddler.

OhHolyJesus Tue 10-Sep-19 16:03:40

If you don't want to unfollow completely you can mute for 30 days. It's basically attention seeking nonsense and/or jumping on the bandwagon to be special. Either way it's tedious and there are more important things to worry about, let her crack on.

nauticant Tue 10-Sep-19 16:10:29

Without this she'd be a bog-standard heterosexual woman. Generally looked down on. This way she can be brave and stunning and be met with admiration whenever she announces her special identity.

Given the choice she's gone for high status over low status.

BillywilliamV Tue 10-Sep-19 16:14:44

I identify as a small wooden coffee table but I reserve the right to be feminine

itseasybeingcheesy Tue 10-Sep-19 16:16:39

People are desperate to be different from everyone else because they don't feel satisfied with themselves as they are. Not because there's anything "wrong" with them but because they are self obsessed.

This phase of society will be looked back on with embarrassment in twenty to forty years no doubt.

Scarlett555 Tue 10-Sep-19 16:21:04

She / they sounds annoying but harmless

Doyoumind Tue 10-Sep-19 16:30:30

Blatant attention seeking on behalf of your friend.

Regarding feminine trans men... urgh. Anyone can wear anything they like and should be allowed to (as long as they aren't indecent) but it has nothing to do with whether they are female or male.

I was confused by a young trans man on YouTube - an actor in a Netflix show - who say saying sometimes they like to wear make up and earrings and be more feminine. I actually think they were genuine, not attention seeking, but more likely a confused lesbian.

TheMessyCleaner Tue 10-Sep-19 16:31:08

@itseasybeingcheesy I agree! It's an epidemic in the circuits I mix in. People making up labels for their kids when they are pretty ordinary, middle class white kids. "Oh but did you know Hugo actually has ADHD?"

Whatsnewpussyhat Tue 10-Sep-19 16:32:03

I thought the whole point of being a trans man was a rejection of femininity.

raffle Tue 10-Sep-19 16:34:42

ADHD isn’t a made up label. It’s a neuro diverse condition that requires extensive evidence to diagnose.

Was kinda with you up until this point.

itseasybeingcheesy Tue 10-Sep-19 16:37:37

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ErrolTheDragon Tue 10-Sep-19 16:40:12

Non-binary female in LTR with man = closet ordinary heterosexual woman.

Fem transmen = closet ordinary woman, sexuality unspecified.

It's such a shame these people feel they can't just be themselves.

BeMoreMagdalen Tue 10-Sep-19 16:50:34

Being trans is about your inner essence. Your gender identity is an internal sense or feeling. It is unrelated to your gender expression, which is how you present your gender to the world.

You can feel like a man, or a woman, or neither or both, or unending combinations of all of these, and this gender identity may be reflected in the way you dress in ways coded by your culture as masculine or feminine, or non binary. But it also may be hidden within you, and the way you appear, for various reasons, as culturally coded, doesn't reflect anything about it.

This is the justification for telling everyone not to 'assume gender', and it's also the reason why hulking great bear men can demands the right to wander into a female space without censure because the inner essence is entirely unrelated to the totally masculine body and thick facial hair and masculine coded clothes.

This particular instance could possibly be a useful starting point to discuss why a woman would reject the physical fact of her womanhood, and claim to not be one, while embracing every trapping of feminine coded presentation enforced by a patriarchal society.

It's almost like the most perfect example of rejecting the idea of slavery while cheerfully being enslaved and insisting you are much better than those slaves over there because you've chosen to be enslaved and they are still fighting against it.

The idea of fighting against gendered stereotypes by saying you don't have to be a woman to be feminine, and vice versa, and then celebrating the femininity rather than the actual diversity of being a woman.

YobaOljazUwaque Tue 10-Sep-19 16:55:20

Was kinda with you up until this point. - yeah me to. A lot of neurodiverse conditions are masked but causing massive stress underneath.

I remember a thread on Twitter where someone asked trans people what they would do if all the "cis" people blinked out of existence for 1 day. Pretty much all the transmen said they would take off their binder and wear a skirt. It was really sad. And it's obvious that the reason they feel this way is because if they did that, and acted in a feminine way, they would be judged as being not really trans after all.

I think a lot of trans and non-binary xx people are actually only a hair's breadth from agreeing wholeheartedly with feminism. What they desperately want is to not be categorised and labeled with traits and expectations which are associated with stereotypes based on genitalia. But society and culture is massively sexist and is judgemental all the time, and its horrible. Feminists have been trying to change society to become less sexist for decades and it's not working. Sexism is still rife and I can't see any massive improvements on the horizon.

So opting out of the constant judgement and criticism that every woman has to live with, by identifying out of being a woman, does have an appeal. I expect that the price for that status, of having to then reject absolutely everything associated with femininity, can feel a bit painfully steep for some.

ErrolTheDragon Tue 10-Sep-19 16:58:12

Re the tag line 'let trans men be fem' - I'd really want to ask who the heck is stopping them?

Gingerkittykat Tue 10-Sep-19 17:00:06

I have a friend who identifies as a queer femme, even though she has been in a long term relationship with a man for several years.

ErrolTheDragon Tue 10-Sep-19 17:01:58

Any idea why?

TheMessyCleaner Tue 10-Sep-19 17:12:11

At no point did I Day that ADHD was a myth. I work on a mental health ward. I have autistic friends, I spend my lunch breaks talking to mental heath professionals. Do I have sympathy for those who sit diagnosing their children on google without training and not seeking any sort of guidance or diagnosis but labelling (often incorrectly) them for life? Errr no.

JanMeyer Tue 10-Sep-19 17:29:37

*It's crazy the amount of people who are "awaiting diagnosis" for their children's ADHD, ASD etc when their children are completely ordinary, if slightly challenging children.
Someone recently told me their 2 year old had ASD.*

And, are you qualified to decide those children don't have ASD? What the hell does "completely ordinary, but slightly challenging mean?"
You have no fucking idea what those children do or don't have. Interesting that you admit the children are "slightly challenging" but refuse to even consider the idea they could actually be autistic. Or do you think all autistic children are badly behaved little terrors and if a child behaves well then it means they're "normal."
And yes, a two year old can be diagnosed with autism. What the hell is your problem with that?
If it was diagnosed that young it must be very obvious then.
Oh and it's not a label, it's a diagnosis. Early diagnosis can mean more intervention, support and being better prepared for the child starting school.
Tell me, is it only autism you have a problem being diagnosed with in a two year old? If the child had cerebral palsy instead would you be scoffing at it?

TheMessyCleaner Tue 10-Sep-19 17:32:28

They don't diagnose ASD in children under five generally. I was told that by someone who works specifically with a charity that offers autism post diagnosis support.

HighNetGirth Tue 10-Sep-19 17:37:58

Why do people declare their identities at all ? I’m not telling you mine and, in the nicest possible way, I don’t give a hoot about any Of yours.

JanMeyer Tue 10-Sep-19 17:38:49

They don't diagnose ASD in children under five generally. I was told that by someone who works specifically with a charity that offers autism post diagnosis support.

That's not strictly true, I know plenty of people diagnosed at age two or three. Like I said, more "severe obvious" autism can be diagnosed long before five.
And what charity was that? Because if it was the NAS I'd take anything they say with a pinch of salt. In their "awareness training" they use the phrase "everyone is on the spectrum somewhere."

Propertyofhood Tue 10-Sep-19 17:40:35

The only possible way to 'live as a man' or 'identify as a man' if you are female, is to rely entirely on stereotypes.

If you take away stereotypes then the only way to live as a man is to be of the sex class which has a penis and testicles and produces sperm. No female has ever been of this sex class.

You cannot be a 'femme' trans man. To be a trans man, you have to fit with male stereotypes, otherwise you are just.... a woman (the horror!)

Propertyofhood Tue 10-Sep-19 17:41:10

Plenty of children are diagnosed with autism before the age of 5 by the way.

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