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Stonewall have updated their definition of transgender.

(118 Posts)
TurboTeddy Wed 14-Aug-19 16:40:08

Not sure I can add anything, the rediculousness speaks for itself. I think leaving us speechless is the new silencing tactic.

LikeothersIamjustme Wed 14-Aug-19 16:46:46

I love this response

"So should I cut off my penis and give it to my wife? I do all the cleaning, cooking and can put makeup on better than her. Isn't this insulting to both men and women who have fought to break down gender stereotypes."

MIdgebabe Wed 14-Aug-19 16:48:19

Think they misrepresent the equality act and imply that you can use any female facilities if you are Trans , whilst stating that’s trans is who you are not a legal declaration.

It says “ your gender is protected under the equality act”

They also say that none binary people might not like he /she so you should ask “How they would prefer to be addressed “

I would hate it if someone’s called me she to my face. He /she isn’t about addressing someone. It’s about identifying who you are talking about.

SpannerInTheWorks Wed 14-Aug-19 16:50:00

Well who know? I can read maps therefore I am trans

* polishes super special badge *

LikeothersIamjustme Wed 14-Aug-19 16:51:26

Now I am aware I am trans I am confused what I should do after work. I was either going to tidy the garage or do some crocheting. Which would be better for my mental health?

GCAcademic Wed 14-Aug-19 16:52:04

Is this real? It seems too ridiculous to be true.

NonnyMouse1337 Wed 14-Aug-19 16:52:27

I've tried to find the info directly on the Stonewall website, but I can't. Not sure where the screenshot is from. hmm

LukewarmCustard Wed 14-Aug-19 16:55:23

I got called 'Sir' at the Tesco check out yesterday. Under the new Stonewall definition, this makes me trans. I don't identify as trans, but I do fall outside of stereotypical gender norms, am perceived as such by others and have experienced misgendering.

PinkFlowerFairy Wed 14-Aug-19 16:59:26

Wow. That's a whole ton of GC people then! I hate gender norms, not sure theyd welcome me under the trans umbrella.

If only they could stick to sex being sex, we cpuld all reject gender norms together.

EverylittleAlps Wed 14-Aug-19 16:59:30

"That includes people who do not self-identify as trans, but are perceived as such by others"

This has to be a wind-up, surely. You can't self-id someone else?

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown Wed 14-Aug-19 16:59:42

At least they're being open about it. It's all about believing that gender stereotypes are actually real and innate.
Sexist af.

NeurotrashWarrior Wed 14-Aug-19 17:01:20

They can fuck off.

What about children with asd who frequently don't conform to gender stereotypes and either don't have the social awareness to be worried they don't "fit in" or simply don't care what other kids think?

Ali1cedowntherabbithole Wed 14-Aug-19 17:02:35

So that's 99% of people on the planet who come under the trans definition now.

Meaning that's trans ain't that special.

Own goal. Stonewall.

OrchidInTheSun Wed 14-Aug-19 17:03:46

It's from here NonnyMouse:

But it's old I think, judging by the date. Still shit, mind.

SpannerInTheWorks Wed 14-Aug-19 17:06:26

LInk here

SpannerInTheWorks Wed 14-Aug-19 17:06:51

Oops cross posted

HerFemaleness Wed 14-Aug-19 17:08:06

It's not a new updated definition. I wish people would fact check before they post things. It's from a 2004 booklet,.

TurboTeddy Wed 14-Aug-19 17:12:48

I searched for the original document too but couldn't locate it on the website, although there are a lot of resources, some of which you have to pay for. I assumed it was legit given Simon Fanshaw commented.

NonnyMouse1337 Wed 14-Aug-19 17:15:33

Thanks for the links! It's pretty old though so not an updated definition by any stretch of the imagination. Still... It shows the absurd thinking behind it.

Datun Wed 14-Aug-19 17:21:01

How can anything like that be constantly updated? It either is something, or it isn't. Wankers.

I'd also like a list of gender norms. A bloody, bollocking list.

People talk about stereotypes all the time time, but none of these trans organisations list them. Because they know, they absolutely know that if they said them out loud, people would go what the fucking fuck are you talking about?

Melroses Wed 14-Aug-19 17:28:42

How can anything like that be constantly updated?

Probably necessary when you are busy hauling those goal posts all over the place.

KevinKlineSwoon Wed 14-Aug-19 17:40:37

I'm a single parent who fulfills both traditional roles by cooking, cleaning, doing DIY, dishing out discipline, working full time, paying the bills and sewing. I'm delighted to learn I can tick the Transgender box now. In fact, I'm maybe pansexual or omni sexual or asexual. Who knows what I will be next week?

MIdgebabe Wed 14-Aug-19 17:40:49

THEy are also encouraging a new GRA campaign

Michelleoftheresistance Wed 14-Aug-19 17:42:45

So the word 'trans' is rendered totally meaningless, since no one knows exactly what these 'stereotypes' are and practically no one obeys them anyway. Everyone gay (hello Stonewall, remember them?) is disobeying their sex 'norms' by being gay, and argued that they're still men and women like everyone else.

This has passed from the realms of just sensible enough to get listened to and be debated into obvious silliness. And it's no bad thing that being a Stonewall 'champion' is rapidly becoming something to be really embarrassed about.

AyeRobot Wed 14-Aug-19 17:44:33

They need to supply The List Of Stereotypes, so we know whether we're trans or not, then.

Is the Northern Women one the only one in existence?

Pinktulipsarethebest Wed 14-Aug-19 17:45:54

But if I identify someone else as not trans, is that ok too?

Jaxhog Wed 14-Aug-19 17:47:49

I'm female, wear trousers and like IT so I must also be Trans. All my friends must be Trans too, as there isn't a stereotypical person amongst them!

Michelleoftheresistance Wed 14-Aug-19 17:48:30

Just to recap then since it changes pretty much hourly now:

The official LGBT self appointed trainer and adviser on national policy states that:

trans is something to do with not obeying gender norms
(which are not compulsory
and no one knows exactly what they are anyway and they're fluid over time and place)
but it definitely means men can be women and take over their spaces and sports
(although women is a word no one can define and no one knows what that means either)

dear God it's getting embarrassing to be British. Has anyone checked whether Stonewall's had a hand in Brexit? Is that why it's such a total mess?

MockerstheFeManist Wed 14-Aug-19 17:53:01

'computers' were originally women.

My laptop is trans.

Pinkarsedfly Wed 14-Aug-19 17:53:13

I’m wearing trousers today.


Datun Wed 14-Aug-19 17:55:26

*trans is something to do with not obeying gender norms
(which are not compulsory
and no one knows exactly what they are anyway and they're fluid over time and place)
but it definitely means men can be women and take over their spaces and sports
(although women is a word no one can define and no one knows what that means either)*

What happens if you keep obeying the gender norms of infiltrating women's spaces, talking over them, telling them to shut up, expecting them to accommodate your slightest desire and just acting generally entitled?

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 17:58:55

Who was it who tried to write the list of stereotypes and came up with the BS about northern women?
As I recall everyone more or laughed themselves sick, this northern woman included

Datun Wed 14-Aug-19 18:00:19

Was it Meg-John, the paramour of Edward Lord?

Who also said clitorises and penises were virtually interchangeable, apart from size/length.

Michelleoftheresistance Wed 14-Aug-19 18:02:05

Well that says rather more about the experience of Meg John in the bedroom than perhaps they realise....

Can't we have a whip round and send her on the freedom programme?

Datun Wed 14-Aug-19 18:16:04

Just to reiterate, I really, honestly would like a list of the stereotypes.

I'd like to know what Stonewall thinks are typically female and typically male roles.

They clearly have some idea, because they are deciding that non-conformity means something. So let's have it. What roles do Stonewall consider should be assigned to men and women, in order that we may understand why someone might be trans when they say they need a different label, because they don't conform to them.

NeurotrashWarrior Wed 14-Aug-19 18:20:20

I like sci fi and I like reading the paper on loo. I'm deffo transgender.

AyeRobot Wed 14-Aug-19 18:24:02

I've been asking for The List for years, Datun

Glad I didn't hold my breath.

It should exist and it should be the first thing gone through with a counsellor for anyone who thinks they are trans. With a big fat red pen to strike out everything that can be fought by what feminists have been doing for years. Then they can decide whether they are trans or actually a feminist.

Deliriumoftheendless Wed 14-Aug-19 18:24:24

I too would like to know what that list is.

I would genuinely like one of our visitors to advise us.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Wed 14-Aug-19 18:28:32

I don't even possess a skirt, or dress, or make up.

I loathe shopping to the point I've been known to stand and shout at people in the middle of ASDA (I'm not proud of this but it happened).

I prefer watching UFC to soap operas.

I do all the painting and decorating round here.

I have a degree in a physical science.

As I'm Scottish I'm even more northern than northern women.

I'm clearly more transgender than thou.

(this is a competition, right?)

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 18:30:16

I’m sorry but I have to take issue with the suggestion that being Scottish makes you more northern than northern people.
Would you like to take this outside?

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 18:30:55

Ps am I trans yet? Offering people out isn’t very feminine now is it? IS IT???

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Wed 14-Aug-19 18:35:54

Not feminine at all, TheBigBagOfOil.

You must be trans too, along with the entire human race!

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Wed 14-Aug-19 18:36:29

Damn, BigBALLOfOil, apologies.

SarahTancredi Wed 14-Aug-19 18:43:21

Everyone is trans then hmm

Hamster00 Wed 14-Aug-19 18:46:04

-picks up ball and storms off-

I'm more trans than the lot of you. I even had my willy cut off to prove it. So there.

-flounces out-


Deliriumoftheendless Wed 14-Aug-19 18:50:30

I’d offer to hold your coat in support BigBallOfOil but as we are Northern we don’t wear the blummin’ things.

AlphaNumericalSequence Wed 14-Aug-19 18:55:15

According to their definition, "transgender" includes "effeminate men". Have they misgendered these particular people? Or are they acknowledging that being transgender doesn't change your biological sex?

Caaarrrl Wed 14-Aug-19 19:03:57

Oh I've just realised that I'm special! I'm trans, not just a middle aged, over weight, white woman. I wear trousers, can do stuff like replace brake pads on cars, build fences and I do all the decorating. I also hate all housework and shopping etc.

Therefore I am a trans man.

Caaarrrl Wed 14-Aug-19 19:05:03

I'm also Northern. Does that make me more or less trans?

NeurotrashWarrior Wed 14-Aug-19 19:11:51

Define "northern"...

It's always amused me that people from Leeds think they're northern...

TurboTeddy Wed 14-Aug-19 19:15:12


Oh hamster, dysphoria is so last century, it's all about the stereotypes. If you haven't complained about your heels killing you and baked at least one batch of scones this week you're clearly not trying hard enough. smile

Datun Wed 14-Aug-19 19:20:04

I'm more trans than the lot of you. I even had my willy cut off to prove it. So there.

Oh willies. Snort. I don't have a willie, and you don't see me banging on about being trans, do you?!

Sexnotgender Wed 14-Aug-19 19:20:33

That’s fucking appalling!

So effeminate men and butch women are transgender? Says fucking who?

Argh, it makes me so angry. How dare they!

Deliriumoftheendless Wed 14-Aug-19 19:25:09

Wow! There’s some SHOCKING Northernphobia on this thread! I need a lie down. No I will NOT discuss this with you!


Hamster00 Wed 14-Aug-19 19:26:42


I'm clearly CrapTrans (tm) then. This week I've laid carpet tiles, hung a new door and sat on the floor in jogging bottoms and a paint splattered t-shirt eating curry. It's only Wednesday.

No heels or scones in sight -sigh- #LaydeeFail

Caaarrrl Wed 14-Aug-19 19:29:39


How dare you question where I live so that you can decide if I can identify as Northern?

If I feel Northern and I identify as such you are literally committing violence towards me to suggest that where I live might have any bearing on my Northernness

Michelleoftheresistance Wed 14-Aug-19 19:35:04

Argh Hamster they'll be round to confiscate your badge any moment now.... I probably lost mine this morning when I bled a radiator. Instead of pretending I don't know how and fluttering at a neighbour to do it for me. Sigh. It used to be doing this stuff was just being basically independent, not a declaration of a desire to be a bloke.

If I bake a batch of scones quick do you think I'll get away with counting as NB or am I now full on Rambo on the jelly baby scale?

NeurotrashWarrior Wed 14-Aug-19 19:40:17

Wow I see the NRA are out in force tonight!

(Or am I an NRA?confused)

Deliriumoftheendless Wed 14-Aug-19 19:42:23

That’s t’NRA to you!

Caaarrrl Wed 14-Aug-19 19:47:43

Just out of interest neurotrash , where do you consider to be ok to come from to call oneself Northern?

morningtoncrescent62 Wed 14-Aug-19 19:53:11

I feel Northern. My feelz are persistent, consistent and the other one which I can't remember (senior moment). Transnortherners are northerners THERE IS NO DEBATE.

I can tell the booklet's old because it starts by pointing out the difference between sex and gender and saying it's important. I gather that's all very yesterday - my woke colleagues keep telling me that sex and gender have now collapsed into each other, hence female penises and all that rubbish.

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 19:57:28

I am actually from Liverpool. Where does that put me in the northern/transnorthern debate?
My DH as a Yorkshireman claims scousers are just northern cockneys but then he is a filthy bigot whose words are literal violence and he should probably die in a fire.

User10fuckingmillion Wed 14-Aug-19 20:04:18

I think I am a NRA- I have been defending the rights of Cheshire folk to identify as northern for most of my life.

Caaarrrl Wed 14-Aug-19 20:10:34

I think it should make no difference at all where you're from. If you feel Northern then you are. TNAN. No debate

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 20:10:57

But if we permit Cheshire what else must we allow? Stoke? Stafford? Fucking Wolverhampton?
This madness must cease

placemats Wed 14-Aug-19 20:11:47

Anyone who chooses for whatever reason to self identify as transgender.

I call this out for the obvious transphobia that it is.

It totally ignores those that suffer from gender dysphoria (and very few people do and they are most male).

And the rest of it is homophobic.


lionheart Wed 14-Aug-19 20:16:13

Anyone except 'Surrendered Wives' and perhaps Barbie and Ken.

Wurzelsnewhead Wed 14-Aug-19 20:22:00

You’re not more trans than me, I decided not to grow a willy at all. Thankfully I also had a transclusive midwife who recognised I wasn’t in fact male as my mum had expected and assigned me female.
Confession: I do drive with just one hand on the steering wheel sometimes and beep my horn at other drivers (I know, too far). So all that forward planning and I’m still male 😳.

Wurzelsnewhead Wed 14-Aug-19 20:23:28

Stonewash 😀 it’s not the blind leading the blind any more , it’s worse than that it’s the woke leading the woke.

RedToothBrush Wed 14-Aug-19 20:25:18

Katy kiernan @ katykiernan
So a trans man who embraces and performs all stereotypically male roles and behaviours is not transgender, whereas I am transgender because I don't wear make up and hate romcoms.

Lily Maynard @lilylilymaynard
Good grief, you are right! By that logic you are completely right! My head is spinning

Congratulations Stonewall

Catherine Jenson @csjenson68
^So with that definition I’d be very surprised if there was anyone not transgender.
Which means we’re all transgender.
Which means Stonewall just erased transgender as a distinct group.
...erased, in a puff of logic.^

Stonewall are so transphobic.

KatvonHostileExtremist Wed 14-Aug-19 20:35:02

I'm really northern but I also used the word "mate" quite a lot the other day. I feel this makes me northernfluid.
Show me some respect nerfs

RedToothBrush Wed 14-Aug-19 20:37:04

I think I am a NRA- I have been defending the rights of Cheshire folk to identify as northern for most of my life.

WTF are you on about? Cheshire is in the North.

It has Roger Johnson and Annabel Tiffin. Only a true Northerner from the NW will understand what this means. What further proof do you need?

If you want an identity issue relating to geographical location then I give you people from Altrincham who put Cheshire on their address (it's in Trafford), or people from Warrington who depending on which side of the Manchester Ship Canal they come from insist on putting Cheshire or Lancashire on their address (it's Warrington unitary authority), or people from St Helens who put Lancashire (its in Merseyside).

Tsk. Where do you think Cheshire is if its not in the North? The North starts just north of Keele Services.

Deliriumoftheendless Wed 14-Aug-19 20:39:25

I’m so Northern I was born at t’foot of our stairs.

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 20:39:30

Where do we stand on Shrewsbury?
I say southern.

RedToothBrush Wed 14-Aug-19 20:42:10

Shrewsbury is South of Keele. Its not southern though. Its in the no man's land that neither the North nor South want to claim called 'The Midlands'.

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 20:43:29

I suppose that’s the equivalent of non binary.
Neither nowt nor summat.

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 20:44:20

Ps apologies to salopians- I actually really like Shrewsbury. And Ludlow. Lovely farm shop

ThatCurlyGirl Wed 14-Aug-19 20:46:12


Ps am I trans yet? Offering people out isn’t very feminine now is it? IS IT???

You're my new favourite you aggressive bastard. Or bitch.

I'd say your funny post made me giggle but that's probably a female stereotype and I used to watch WWF and that's a male stereotype, but was born with female sex organs so I think maybe that makes me trans neutral because I'm not either stereotype. Oh no wait, I'm just me - who happens to be a woman.

Jokes aside your response made me laugh and you sound brilliant so thanks for a glimmer-esque (glinner-esque?!) light in the dark 😊

RedToothBrush Wed 14-Aug-19 20:48:04

DH and I did have a nerdy conversation about where the NW started on Sunday funnily enough. We were driving between j16 and j15 southbound. Theres a big bend in the road which marks the boundary (if you know the road you'll know where I mean. Big hill in front of you on the southbound carriage then then is to your left). The trees on the Staffordshire side (left) are the giveaway. They go all the way down to Cannock and make up part of the same old woodland. They aren't on the opposite side (right) which is Cheshire.

ThatCurlyGirl Wed 14-Aug-19 20:48:39

FFS YES I was physically born in the south and have lived here all my life but I do a mean scouse accent and my uncle's mate's cousin supports Liverpool.

So I guess I identify as Northernfluid.

Unless it's about salaries and then I would like to be Londonweighted please, cheers.

RedToothBrush Wed 14-Aug-19 20:49:52

(I've definitely given the subject of the NW boundary far to much thought this week, haven't I? )

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 20:51:17

I know where you mean and I think I probably agree.
We should probably map equivalents for all north -south arterial routes. That way we’ll all know where we bloody we’ll stand. Forget the GRA, this is the real issue

cranstonmanor Wed 14-Aug-19 20:54:33

"That includes people who do not self-identify as trans, but are perceived as such by others"
But that would also mean that if I perceive a transwoman as a man, that they are a man, right? Because if it depends on how you are perceived then that goes both ways. I'm ok with that.

NeurotrashWarrior Wed 14-Aug-19 20:58:55

I used to think that Manchester and the peaks were north till I ended up north of the Tyne.

Chillier in the Peaks mind you, on account of their height n that. T'Elevation counts n all. Snow in June and all that.

Of course we all know the acid test is how you eat and say scone...

Michelleoftheresistance Wed 14-Aug-19 21:00:40

if it depends on how you are perceived then that goes both ways. I'm ok with that.

Excellent point.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers Wed 14-Aug-19 21:02:04

Forget the GRA, this is the real issue

If you 'll forgive an intrusion into South of the Border matters which are not part of my 'lived experience' it strikes me that the problem with South of the Border is the lack of defined boundaries.

If you had proper fault lines like we North of the Border types do it would be clear who is South, who Central and who Northern.

Then you could concentrate on calling each other your equivalent of Sassenachs and Teauchters without worrying about who is which.

NeurotrashWarrior Wed 14-Aug-19 21:05:08

<loads butter, jam then cream>

<takes aim...>

Scone fight!

... on the (Sloe Gin) Prosecco stormfront!

NeurotrashWarrior Wed 14-Aug-19 21:05:54

<sneaks back with appropriate attachment..>

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 21:06:41

So I’ve just spoken to dh about this and he says it’s very simple. Derbyshire, Staffs and Notts are all midlands. As is Lincolnshire. But then he is a total Yorkshire fascist. Perhaps I should LTB.

NeurotrashWarrior Wed 14-Aug-19 21:08:00

Ah but Arnold. One could argue that the actual real border is Hadrian's wall.

Archaeologists would agree on that. Stone and bones don't lie.

TheBigBallOfOil Wed 14-Aug-19 21:11:03

So according to that map I’m more northern than DH. This is fucking dynamite. Thanks neuro

TheRugbyValkyrie Wed 14-Aug-19 21:36:45

I've just had a good look on the Stonewall website and there is nothing about a new definition for transgender.
I think someone is having a laugh!

TurboTeddy Wed 14-Aug-19 22:00:08

Born and raised Salopian, it's the West Midlands.

TurboTeddy Wed 14-Aug-19 22:04:20

Oh I see I was born in the geographic equivalent of non binary. I'm geotrans then as I now live in the south west, which I think identifies as queer.

Doobigetta Wed 14-Aug-19 22:24:34

Cheshire is North. Stoke-on-Trent is Midlands. Shrewsbury is South. HTH.

TeamUnicorn Wed 14-Aug-19 22:27:19

Only the Eastern side of our fair land of England is classed as North. The green lands of Scotland are also up North.

The Western side can say they are North but only if they add the clarifier West.

But I think I can just put on a pinny, do the pots and tell everyone I am a northern lass. I face literal violence nearly everyday when people say 'you're not from round here'

Melroses Wed 14-Aug-19 23:21:27

I started off north of the Tyne which is definitely north and will concede that Manchester is north west, but anything south of that is Midlands (and that includes Altrincham).

S Yorks identifies as northern, but it is Midlands, along with Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. I have also lived in the Midlands so can tell the difference.

failingatlife Wed 14-Aug-19 23:29:23

Being from West Central Scotland I consider Northern to be Aberdeen Inverness etc 😜 S o all you England dwellers are Trans northern not cis Northern 😂😜

3mks Wed 14-Aug-19 23:41:08

Someone else posted earlier it was in their leaflet from 2004 (I think).

ErrolTheDragon Wed 14-Aug-19 23:50:02

Someone else posted earlier it was in their leaflet from 2004 (I think).

I've not had time to RTFT but was about to say that - looks like p5 which I've quoted a number of times in the past especially the 'Anyone who chooses, for whatever reason, to self-identify as transgender' clause.

I can't figure out how to do a link to it because the url contains 2 underscores which MN markup mangles. If you google 'bb trangender booklet.qxd' you should be able to find it.

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