Talk

Advanced search

Distressing case - Jayme Closs - has there ever been a case like this where the predator was female?

(48 Posts)
Bittermints Wed 16-Jan-19 12:21:06

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46867224

Horrific case.

He allegedly told investigators he was driving to his job at a cheese factory one day near the village of Almena when he spotted Jayme get on a school bus. The charging document quotes Mr Patterson as saying that when he saw Jayme, "he knew that was the girl he was going to take." Mr Patterson told police he only had worked at the factory for two days, and ended up spotting Jayme on one of the two mornings he drove to work. The complaint says the accused twice scouted the Closs home near Barron with the plan of taking Jayme.

He then went to the house at night, shot her father through the door, shot her mother upstairs and absconded with this poor child, who was 13, and kept her captive for three months. She managed to escape and he has admitted everything. I can't imagine what she has gone through or how she will recover.

However, reading that, it occurred to me, now rare it is that we ever hear of any similar crimes committed by women. That level of obsession combined with violence and entitlement is just not found in women, is it? What goes wrong with the socialisation of these men? I note that his brother has a conviction for sexual assault on a minor.

Slothslothsloth Wed 16-Jan-19 12:32:38

I would be willing to go out on a limb and say there has literally NEVER been such a crime committed solely by a woman without a male accomplice. And by such a crime I mean: solely sexually motivated, paedophilic, premeditated, immensely violent.

I believe men and women are on average wired differently when it comes to sex and violence, and the blank slate ideology often espoused by radical feminism is actually often quite unhelpful.

R0wantrees Wed 16-Jan-19 12:34:22

However, reading that, it occurred to me, now rare it is that we ever hear of any similar crimes committed by women. That level of obsession combined with violence and entitlement is just not found in women, is it? What goes wrong with the socialisation of these men? I note that his brother has a conviction for sexual assault on a minor.

It is male-pattern abuse.
It is important to be able to name it.

current thread discussing UK case of male abuse and targetting of young girls:

'Cross-dressing pervert, 48, travelled 400 miles on bus from Kent to meet 14-year-old schoolgirl he groomed on WhatsApp... only to meet paedophile hunters when he arrived in Glasgow'

"A cross-dressing pervert who travelled more than 400 miles across Britain believing he was meeting a 14-year-old girl was trapped by paedophile vigilantes.

Richard Grattige, 48, who lives in Maidstone, Kent, and is also known as Vicky Green, believed he was in contact with a child after talking to her on WhatsApp.

He travelled by bus to Glasgow after arranging to meet her - but was confronted by vigilantes who recorded him confessing his plans before handing him over to police." (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6594429/Cross-dressing-pervert-travelled-meet-14-year-old-schoolgirl.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3480540-Daily-Mail-pulls-no-punches-with-this-headline

R0wantrees Wed 16-Jan-19 12:37:42

I would be willing to go out on a limb and say there has literally NEVER been such a crime committed solely by a woman without a male accomplice. And by such a crime I mean: solely sexually motivated, paedophilic, premeditated, immensely violent.

Important threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237699-Thread-on-twitter-The-paedophilia-plan

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3470090-Twitter-hosts-paedophiles-AIBU-to-think-this-should-change

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3470090-Twitter-hosts-paedophiles-AIBU-to-think-this-should-change

slug Wed 16-Jan-19 12:50:59

Ther are cases of women murdering women to steal foetuses www.news.com.au/world/breaking-news/woman-guilty-in-murder-of-mum-foetus/news-story/8297002565601ff43764046a9de5b1b7 I think this is probably the nearest you can get.

R0wantrees Wed 16-Jan-19 12:55:23

slug
WTAF That is a case from 2012.

Nothing to do with the pattern of the crimes being discussed.

Danaquestionseverything Wed 16-Jan-19 13:01:02

Yep only women doing this type of crime had male accomplices. Fred and Rosemary West, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley and David and Catherine Birnie. As far as I recall. Oh nearly forgot the Canadian couple Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka. All complete degenerates.

hackmum Wed 16-Jan-19 13:04:34

Women just don't commit this kind of crime. The interesting question is why - nurture or nature, or a mix of both?

Danaquestionseverything Wed 16-Jan-19 13:06:48

Technically the Birnies youngest victim who fortunately escaped was late teens. But still were violent sexually motivated predators. Anyway does anyone really believe the crimes these people were convicted for are the only ones they've committed?

Ugh. Way past my bedtime. I can see I'm gonna have pleasant dreams tonight. NOT. 😩

Danaquestionseverything Wed 16-Jan-19 13:09:46

Omg Hackmum that's really the eternal question isn't it? I wish I could sit up for hours discussing this. I'm absolutely shacked. Another time maybe.

feelingverylazytoday Wed 16-Jan-19 13:14:52

Can't think of any cases involving a female abducting a male. I think Mary Kay Letourneau is probably the nearest that a female acting alone would come to this crime. Her victim was 12 when she started to groom him, though of course there was no violence involved.

nauticant Wed 16-Jan-19 13:15:12

I don't like arguments on the basis of very particular and very extreme crimes. It tends to elicit in response an example of a very extreme crime committed by a woman and then the argument can turn into why one really horrible crime should be viewed as more serious than another really horrible crime.

slug Wed 16-Jan-19 13:20:04

R0amtrees, I'm not saying it's the same, I'm saying it's the closet thing. And it's rare, but not unknown www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3595097/Woman-murdered-30-year-old-mother-steal-three-month-old-baby-sentenced-life-prison-without-parole.html. There have been UK cases www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/sep/11/women-who-murder-for-babies Almost definitely associated with severe mental illness, whereas male pattern violence is just that. Male pattern violence assumes that wmen's bodies are theirs to command

R0wantrees Wed 16-Jan-19 13:25:54

No-one is denying that women commit crimes, including violent crimes and attempting to take babies.

We need to be talk about male-pattern abuse, violence and control

Women also commit crimes and NAMALT are usual distractions and as well as missing the point divert from the issue.

Bittermints Wed 16-Jan-19 14:44:41

Yes, it's male pattern violence. I take nauticant's point that cases like this are so extreme and so rare that there may be little to learn from it. I was just gobsmacked by reading about this earlier. I hope he spends the rest of his life behind bars.

GoldenWonderwall Wed 16-Jan-19 14:53:00

The scoping out a potential victim is not unheard of though? Neither is a man being a paedophile and acting on this irl or by viewing images of child abuse. The unusual bit is that he shot her parents to abduct her, rather than wait til she was on her own. It’s like something from a film.

SirVixofVixHall Wed 16-Jan-19 14:56:00

I agree with Slothslothsloth, in that overwhelmingly sexual violence is a male crime, and I don’t believe that is purely down to socialisation, although that is certainly a factor.

QuietContraryMary Wed 16-Jan-19 14:59:15

I don't know that we need to go into kidnap/murder cases - it's sufficient to look at everyday crimes. In very large parts of the world it's made clear to both sexes that women will be raped by men under certain circumstances (wrong clothes, no chaperone, wrong route, going on holiday alone, etc.)

This is applicable only to women & it is perpetrated only by men.

nauticant Wed 16-Jan-19 15:09:22

Yes, like QuietContraryMary I think that a clearer picture is apparent if we look at a broader canvas.

ChiaraRimini Wed 16-Jan-19 15:29:29

Comparing the male and female prison populations shows there is a totally different pattern of offending between the sexes. I am sure there must be academic criminology research on this.

QuietContraryMary Wed 16-Jan-19 15:45:04

In the past we locked up many more criminals and a much higher % of the prison population was female. As I understand it there is now a higher bar than in the past so various forms of crime are not met with prison.

That said, we are talking about 4% female now vs 15% female 100 years ago, so still overwhelmingly male.

Note that the TV licence Capita fuckers prosecute almost as many women as the police do, and overall the majority of prosecutions of women are for criminalised civil wrongs, by the DVLA, Council & TV licence.

By contrast whereas a prosecution of a woman is almost as likely to have come from the TV licence salesmen as from the police, a prosecution of a man by the police is 14x more likely than from TV licensing. This reflects both higher male criminality & the way that Capita's tactics are far more effective against women than men, and Capita have targeted women, having doubled the number of women prosecuted in less than a decade.

nauticant Wed 16-Jan-19 15:48:24

Did you have this illustrative thread in mind when you wrote that?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3480839-Questioned-under-caution-by-TV-licensing-guy-I-have-a-TV-licence

JSmitty Wed 16-Jan-19 15:55:23

Do not underestimate the guilt of the likes of Rose West and Myra Hindley.

That said, there is not a 'crime gene,' but there is a crime chromasome, and it's Y. Men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of crime, especially serious and violent crime. But not all men, and the vast majority of them grow out of it of their own accord.

QuietContraryMary Wed 16-Jan-19 15:57:36

Not initially, but when I went through the statistics it did come to mind.

The thing that struck me about that thread was how very gendered it was - in the first instance if you are assertive and tell the TV licence man to fuck off then it's over he can't do anything, even if you are in the wrong, and secondly in that case the OP was not in the wrong as it is certainly not intended that where you have simply not updated your address that you should be censured.

It is a case where being 'female'/passive makes you a criminal, and being 'male'/assertive absolves you of wrongdoing

ChiaraRimini Wed 16-Jan-19 16:20:03

And yet it's not a criminal offence to fail to pay child maintenance. Funny that.

Join the discussion

Registering is free, quick, and means you can join in the discussion, watch threads, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Get started »