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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Jennifer Pritzker strops

74 replies

gcscience · 14/01/2019 23:34

Oh I know "family action" sounds a bit traditional and so on, but put your prejudices aside and you might find yourself, like me, agreeing with every word of this most refreshingly phrased article!

illinoisfamilyaction.org/2019/01/the-trans-identifying-pritzker-issues-ultimatum-to-gop/

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boatyardblues · 14/01/2019 23:49

It is refreshing to read an article for a change where the writer has a solid grasp of the difference between sex and gender. I removed the quote I originally posted above to reduce the chances of my post being deleted.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 15/01/2019 00:30

Maybe the Democrats will need to be reminded of "careful what you wish for, you just might get it".

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Funkyfunkybeat12 · 15/01/2019 02:48

Put your prejudices aside? This is a group who says on their ‘about’ page that they do not believe that the family includes same sex couples. So excuse me if I say fuck off when heterosexual people expect me to put my prejudice aside and embrace a group that fundamentally hates me just because they wrote an article that the op agrees with. Is it just gays that are fair game or would you expect BAME people to put aside their prejudices to read articles by Britain First?

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FWRLurker · 15/01/2019 05:00

It is actually upsetting to read this article alongside the rest of the unscientific drivel re: climate change denial, “gay families aren’t families”, the evil satanic public education system, etc on that website.

Makes one immediately associate actually reasonable arguments with that other trash. Well Any stopped clock is right twice each day I suppose. Still, ick.

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PineappleSunrise · 15/01/2019 06:13

It is a timely reminder that, along with the reasonable agreement on two sexes/no limits on behaviours various political tribes have found on this issue, there is likely still a split between people who think that gender nonconformity is FINE actually and are brindling against being forced into a binary by a bunch of well-meaning fools who think that non-conformity to stereotypes needs to be pathologised, and people who actually think that gender stereotypes ARE sex and want everyone to conform.

I'm not a member of the latter group, you may have guessed.

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RiddleyW · 15/01/2019 06:22

Please don’t direct people to that poisonous website.

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RiddleyW · 15/01/2019 06:24

Also what are the prejudices you want me to put aside? My prejudices against homophobia?

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QuentinWinters · 15/01/2019 07:27

Great post lurker

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frazzled1 · 15/01/2019 07:58

In addition to his strong, persistent desire to masquerade as a woman, he apparently has a strong, persistent desire to have others not only see that he wants to be a woman but treat him as if he were a woman. But that’s a bridge too far because it requires of others that they deny both reality and, in many cases, their religious beliefs.

This.

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gcscience · 15/01/2019 09:06

So excuse me if I say fuck off when heterosexual people expect me to put my prejudice aside and embrace a group that fundamentally hates me just because they wrote an article that the op agrees with. Is it just gays that are fair game or would you expect BAME people to put aside their prejudices to read articles by Britain First?

Also what are the prejudices you want me to put aside? My prejudices against homophobia?

I suggested you put your prejudices aside regarding the website name as I did.

FYI I didn't read anything else on the website and didn't suggest you did so either. I accept no responsibility that you did so, you're an adult. I was completely unaware of any repellant content on the site. I suggested reading an article which I agree with. To suggest that I agree with statements which I have never read is not on, and makes you look extremely stupid. If you have legitimate concerns about homophobic content on that site I suggest you direct your anger/comments to the writers or publishers, not to me who has never even read said content. When I stumbled across the article I saw no reason to conduct a hazard analysis just in case anyone went further than I did.

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Funkyfunkybeat12 · 15/01/2019 09:19

Right. Sure. I mean it’s the name that’s the problem, not the very obvious viewpoint they take. Family action by itself means very little, but it’s extremely obvious just from clicking on the ‘about’ button what they’re about and where they make the lovely statement that they don’t think same sex couples count as families.

Why would my concerns about homophobia not be valid? I thought that was clear in my post but if you need me to spell it out, I am a lesbian. So you telling me to put my prejudice aside actually grates on me and I find it upsetting. As I asked before, would you link to eg Britain First and tell BAME people to get over their prejudice about the name? I really hope you wouldn’t.

The article doesn’t even say anything that others haven’t said in a more polite and measured way.

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gcscience · 15/01/2019 09:30

I told that I didn't click on the about button (I was on my phone, the only thing I remember seeing was the article itself).

they make the lovely statement that they don’t think same sex couples count as families.

I told you I didn't read this.

As I asked before, would you link to eg Britain First and tell BAME people to get over their prejudice about the name? I really hope you wouldn’t.

You are falsely insinuating things again and I feel you need to apologise.

I failed to realise a site called family action was a site containing homophobia that is all. That is the sum total of my sin. Stop making my actions be more than what they are.

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SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 15/01/2019 09:31

Oh I know "family action" sounds a bit traditional and so on...

It sounds a bit 'traditional' because it's part of the name of a group that support 'traditional' values like homophobia and racism.

It is not always the case that my enemy's enemy is my friend. These people may agree with us one issue, but they do so for very different reasons, so we really should not be cosying up to them because they do not have the best interests of women (or gay, or BAME people) at heart.

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SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 15/01/2019 09:33

When I stumbled across the article I saw no reason to conduct a hazard analysis just in case anyone went further than I did.

You should have done! It's a good idea to check exactly who or what you are endorsing when you share a link you wholeheartedly agree with.

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gcscience · 15/01/2019 09:39

You should have done! It's a good idea to check exactly who or what you are endorsing when you share a link you wholeheartedly agree with.

I endorsed the article only and still do. I did not endorse the writer (who) nor did I endorse the website (what).

I personally feel it is peoples' own responsibility if they click on something which I didn't even mention, not mine. (ie the about button which was not to my recollection visible on my phone)

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SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 15/01/2019 09:48

Oh I know "family action" sounds a bit traditional and so on, but put your prejudices aside and you might find yourself, like me, agreeing with every word of this most refreshingly phrased article!

Your OP. Where you told us to put aside our prejudices about the name of the organisation and we might agree with the writer. Did the name not ring any alarm bells?

It is a good idea to check the veracity and credentials of a source before you recommend it in such glowing terms, especially when the name of the source pretty much tells you the agenda.

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albumcover · 15/01/2019 09:59

This debate can lead us into shark infested waters. Rod Liddle is another example of citing repellent commentators because they happen to share an opinion on one subject matter. I think funkyfunkybeat12 makes a really good point and I agree with her in this instance.

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gcscience · 15/01/2019 10:06

No, Family Action did not ring any alarm bells.

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SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 15/01/2019 10:12

No, Family Action did not ring any alarm bells.

I'm very surprised by that because terms like 'family action' are usually only seen as part of the name of fundamental Christian organisations who promote racism while opposing gay rights and, ironically, the rights of women.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have led a particularly sheltered life so aren't aware of this.

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gcscience · 15/01/2019 10:12

Do you think I'm homophobic and racist?

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gcscience · 15/01/2019 10:13

I havent had a sheltered life at all but do not know much about religious fundamentalism, why would I?

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albumcover · 15/01/2019 10:15

Anything with ‘family’ in its name usually has the fundamentalist Christian and Far Right alarm bells ringing for me!

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OldCrone · 15/01/2019 10:17

It is not always the case that my enemy's enemy is my friend. These people may agree with us one issue, but they do so for very different reasons, so we really should not be cosying up to them because they do not have the best interests of women (or gay, or BAME people) at heart.

I think this gets to the root of why we are where we are. The division of ideas and policies that align or don't align with other ideas. If you're left wing, it's expected that along with not being homophobic or racist, you will be totally accepting of trans ideology. Conversely, if you are sceptical about trans ideology (because it's anti-woman and regressive), there is an assumption amongst some people that you must also be homophobic and agree with any number of other offensive ideologies.

What needs to be worked on is the idea that a number of ideas 'go together', and that if you agree with one you must agree with some or all of the others.

Of course the other real problem here is that trans ideology seems to have been swallowed whole by both sides as being progressive, instead of being seen for the regressive, homophobic and misogynistic bullshit it really is.

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SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 15/01/2019 10:21

Do you think I'm homophobic and racist?

I'm assuming you aren't, but if you post links like this with a positive endorsement and a request that people put their 'prejudices aside', a lot of people will think you are.

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GCSocScientist · 15/01/2019 10:22

I must say, I read the article, and there isn't one phrase within it that I don't agree with. I also have been a life long advocate of gay rights, though cannot stand nor support the current crowd in charge of LGBTQ, who have enthusiastically peripheralised lesbianism and have endorsed the views of pedo apologists/advocates.

I personally think that one of the reasons that TRA has been so successful is that we exist within the comfort of our echo chambers too much, and rather than listen to the content of what is said, assume that an argument will be valid because of who is saying it.
I personally experienced that with my support for the labour party, I am/was a labour voter, and it took a long time to reconcile my social democratic view points with the increasing evidence of misogyny in the party re: trans rights in particular.

We need to ask ourselves can we or should we ever align ourselves with those who share our viewpoints on some issues but not on others? Is our cause enhanced, or not, by doing so?

Clearly, feminism shares some concerns with social conservativism, the article states:

"Pritzker accuses states that require public restroom-usage to correspond to biological sex of preying “on people’s irrational fears for their safety.” He ignores that many people—including boys and men—oppose sharing restrooms and locker rooms with opposite-sex persons, not because they fear for their safety, but because they have natural, normal feelings of modesty. Sexual differentiation is the source of those feelings of modesty and the desire for privacy when undressing or engaged in personal bodily functions".

Feminists would perhaps not use the term 'modesty', we would perhaps use the term privacy or bodily integrity, and we would centre women, but it is getting at the same thing.


Feminists would also speak of the risk to women of male violence when MtF trans enter single sex spaces, which I note the article does not refer to.

"How, in Pritzker’s view, does the GOP assault, demonize, marginalize, and persecute “trans”-identifying people? Apparently, it does so by not subordinating the meaning and value of objective biological sex to subjective, internal feelings about maleness and femaleness; by not wanting men and women to intrude into the private spaces of opposite-sex persons; by using pronouns correctly; and for opposing men and women who serve our country being forced to bunk and shower with persons of the opposite sex."

Again, this is also what feminists have been arguing, material reality cannot be ignored. Biological sex is real, gender is the cultural expression of that reality. Feminists are less likely to take examples from the military though..

"Social conservatives are being shoved out by the “tolerant.”"

Here, we have been arguing that feminist principles are being overwritten by the tolerant/woke.

I did look at the 'about page', and I cant see much that I would align myself with. In fact they state:

"We deny that “family” includes two or more persons of the same or opposite sex who live together outside the institution of marriage whether for convenience or homosexuality or romance or experimentation or otherwise."

And that statement, I disagree with viscerally, and experience as a kick in the teeth.

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