Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

[LittleLebowski]

Thanks for sharing. Debbie Hayton is always a calm, measured voice in this debate. An example of someone identifying with, rather than just as a woman.

[deepwatersolo]

Oh, the voice of reason. Speaking sense in the Times. Who allowed that to happen?

[Dragoncake]

That's a good piece.

I have seen many of the same concerns for trans people expressed on FWR. People with an actual dysphoria diagnosis stand to lose a lot here too.

[Dragoncake]

By which I mean stand to lose a lot because of self ID

[DebbieInBirmingham]

Thank.you for sharing the piece. I care about women's rights - I hope that comes through in my writing - but I describe myself deliberately as a campaigner for trans rights. The standard narrative- TWAW and all that - is not doing us any good at all.

[TimeLady]

Thank you for that clear, thoughtful piece, Debbie.

Janice's metaphor might have seemed unkind but it was an effective way of getting the message over to the masses, who don't understand that there is a significant difference between transsexuals and transgenders. And, so late in the day, any method of galvanising public opinion against the proposed changes is welcome in my book.

[Igneococcus]

I wrote a comment about that Time lady but it's pending.

The Times is really sticking with the issue, aren't they?

[BiologyMatters]

What point is Debbie making? Debbie appears to think it's fine for transwomen to be in female prisons as long as they pass some sort of test. No men in female spaces, thank you.

[Stickerladiesoftheworldunite]

Thanks Debbie for a sensible piece. Thanks to The Times for another GC piece.

[NotBadConsidering]

Debbie, I can understand how Janice’s comment about foxes in the hen house could be hurtful, but doesn’t it also have to be acknowledged that a trans woman who has been incarcerated is highly likely to be a sex offender? Janice’s comment was about imprisoned trans women, not trans women in general.

[TimeLady]

I confess I have limited sympathy re. transgender prisoners, faking or otherwise. There is, in fact, a staggeringly simple solution:

Don't commit an offence that warrants a custodial sentence - you know, like the rest of us seem to manage to do.

[Prestonsflowers]

I thought the article was interesting and I agree that the way this issue is being pushed forward will be harmful to those who don’t believe that TWAW.
It seems clear to me that if a male bodied person has raped and sexually assaulted a female bodied person.
Then under no circumstances should he be allowed to decide he wants to be a female.

[Cwenthryth]

biologymatters Debbie is here on the thread, so there’s no need to talk about her in the third person, she’s here engaging with us.

the law can command society to take us at our word but it can never force people to believe us.
Well written Debbie - so simple, but I think this is something worth repeating over and over - outside of gender critical circles I mean. The vast vast majority of transwomen people do not pass completely, we still read them instinctively as men no matter how open minded we want to be. If I am in a vulnerable situation and a transwoman is also there - if we are in a legal single sex space that they require a GRC to access, I at least have some reassurance that they are verified, as it were. If the diagnosis requirement were dropped then there’s no confirmation outside of the person’s own mind, which they easily could be disingenuous about for nefarious purposes.

Removing medical and legal barriers to people who want to identify their own gender is welcome, but it involves a lot more than wearing new clothes and changing names.
Debbieinbirmingham I hope you don’t mind me asking you directly on here and understand completely if you don’t want to answer these questions openly on this forum. If you don’t ask you don’t get though so I’m seizing opportunity! This paragraph did raise two questions for me - what barriers do you think should be removed (ie how do you think GRA should be reformed, if at all?) and - what else is there, do you believe, to identifying your gender, aside from changing your name and how you dress (ie, how you present to the outside world, so that hopefully the outside world treats you as the gender you feel)? Its very very difficult for someone like me, who does not identify with the belief in gender at all, to understand what else gender-identifying actually involves other than these practical measures.

[GulagsMyArse]

Thanks Debbie, I thought you made some excellent points. The "debate" what there is of it, is so toxic and voices like yours are very valuable.

I think if selfID goes though there will be a vast majority that feels bullied into accepting something that they don't agree with and that is a recipe for disaster.

I also wondered, is there a CRB check before getting a GRC? I don't think anyone who has committed sexual offences, should get one.

[placemats]

What timelady said.

However, I would add that it seems to me that most transitioning takes place whilst in prison - I can't back that up with any evidence; this is what needs to be tackled.

[Cwenthryth]

I also wondered, is there a CRB check before getting a GRC? I don't think anyone who has committed sexual offences, should get one.

I agree with you on principle. I don’t quite know enough about what kind of offences get you on the sex offenders register and for how long, but it would seem that someone who is on the register should not be granted a GRC. What about other violent/abuse/antisocial crimes though - assault, public order offences, coercive control etc? Should they bar GRC applicants too?

[deepwatersolo]

The ironic thing about the whole self-ID thing is that the one reason that will currently keep most average joes from identifying as women in order to get some advantages (sports competition, prison...), is the stigma attached to being a woman.

Think about that.

[ZuttZeVootEeVro]

A diagnosis of gender diagnosis is just that, a diagnosis. It isn't verification that the person is no danger to women and girls.

Also, women and girls are just as likely to feel uncomfortable, vulnerable and threaten in a female only spaces alongside a male transperson with a diagnosis as they are with one without a diagnosis.

[tiredandweary]

Thank you Debbie - this is difficult territory and all your articles in the Times have been really helpful.

[placemats]

The 'stigma' of being 'brave and stunning'?

[deepwatersolo]

'Also, women and girls are just as likely to feel uncomfortable, vulnerable and threaten in a female only spaces alongside a male transperson with a diagnosis as they are with one without a diagnosis.'

Well, if you, say, make the GRC dependent on SRS, you'd not have people wih penises in women's spaces. And you'd have a straightforward way to have people with penises removed from said spaces. (Not this sillyness of seeing penis and not being sure whether one can say something).

[DebbieInBirmingham]

@Cwenthryth: "I hope you don’t mind me asking you directly on here and understand completely if you don’t want to answer these questions openly on this forum."

Quite happy to take questions anywhere. I just may not have time to answer them. Starting work for the day shortly.

How do I think the GRA should be reformed?

1. The medical reports must stay. It is a bizarre situation when someone's legal sex differs from their biological sex. That should only be permitted when it is necessary - in the opinion of medics - to protect a meaningful transition carried out to maintain mental health.

1. We should have a good look at the sexism that underpins the "real life test" as they used to call it. What does it mean to live as the other gender? Do I have to wear a skirt?

1. There should be an appeals panel. Would rarely meet (if ever) but the principle of appeal is important.

1. Change the spousal veto to an automatic right of divorce for either party.

I'm not easily upset ... and certainly not by reasoned argument. I am quite happy to be challenged on anything I say.

[ZuttZeVootEeVro]

Women and girls are still as likely to feel uncomfortable alongside a male transperson with SRS as one without. Having SRS doesn't mean that person is read as their desired sex by everyone.

Women and girls have a right to feel safe and secure in female only spaces. That shouldn't be compromised because of someone else's diagnosis or surgery.

[deepwatersolo]

'Having SRS doesn't mean that person is read as their desired sex by everyone.'

Well, that may well be true for some Dykes, too. Or for some women, who have decided to go on testosterone but feel still to vulnerable to go into a men's space. I mean, that can become pretty murky again, if we go strictly for 'appearance', no?

[GulagsMyArse]

Thanks DebbieInBirmingham and I think one of the problems is that both the Equality Act and GRC interact in ways, that were not conceived when they were made.

Both need to be rewritten.

What a mess.