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'Gender' should not be enshrined in law

(45 Posts)
Pratchet Fri 13-Jul-18 05:20:19

It's a set of toxic stereotypes. Feminists are the only people able accurately to define it.

No transactivist is able to define it.

thebewilderness Fri 13-Jul-18 05:22:58

That is just plain bizarre, innit?

Prawnofthepatriarchy Fri 13-Jul-18 05:39:16

You can't define a gender identity because it's entirely subjective. There are no other rights that are connected to something you can't prove. You can't get antenatal care if you're not pregnant. You can't get a passport or a driving licence without going through quite a number of hoops. For a licence you have to pass a test.

Riffs off to people having to take a test to discover what their gender identity is which wouldn't suit TW at all. Imagine failing the test! grin

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 13-Jul-18 07:40:31

I was trying to think yesterday of a single gender norm that is consistent over time and culture. Women having to wear shitty shoes (including foot binding) was as close as I could get. Possibly having a proscribed body shape (but the shape has been emaciated through to morbidly obese).

Even personality traits. Maori women weren't expected to be demure and retiring as far as I've heard.

So what is being enshrined? The right to perform the stereotypical norms of the opposite sex in your particular time and location?

Maryzsnewaccount Fri 13-Jul-18 07:49:36

It's the same for "gender segregation" - it makes no sense and is impossible to either legislate for or enforce.

Quite apart from the fact that there is no reason behind it at all. Why separate people into groups for sport, changing or statistics on the basis of their personality? Even if you could analyse that personality and put them neatly into recognisable categories to segregate, which you can't.

Offred Fri 13-Jul-18 07:51:32

You could legislate to protect gender as a belief IMO.

Only the foolish or the bad minded would want gender conflated with or to replace sex.

Bowlofbabelfish Fri 13-Jul-18 07:53:25

Sex needs to stay enshrined in law as a protected characteristic. It must NOT be replaced by gender.

I suppose ‘gender identity’ could fall under religious type beliefs

Maryzsnewaccount Fri 13-Jul-18 07:54:04

Added to which even the most rabid supporters of gender as a concept are having to admit it's indefinable.

Even a few years ago they were insistent that people were "male" or "female" gender; now they are admitting people can be any one of a gazillion (indefinable, indistinguishable and ever-changing) so-called genders. So how do we define any/all of them in law or practice?

Maryzsnewaccount Fri 13-Jul-18 07:55:12

<ponders on the likelihood of the IOC having a separate 100 m race for "anyone identifying as an atheist"> hmm

Floorplan Fri 13-Jul-18 07:59:44

Exactly Mary, it's a moving target. But that's an advantage because as

[number of gender categories] -> infinity,

more and more people will realise it just means personal choice or personality

ErrolTheDragon Fri 13-Jul-18 08:21:15

And transgender shouldn't be replacing transsexual either. Being a transsexual is a real, objective condition.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JustAngryBird/status/1017444210591567872

By all means as a separate issue protect people's right not to be discriminated against because of their 'presentation' - the way to do that is to demolish gender stereotypes.

Dragoncake Fri 13-Jul-18 08:45:26

Defining gender as a religious belief makes great sense. It would allow for the constant changes in gendered beliefs over time and place. Those who believe in it should be protected from discrimination. Which definition as a spiritual practice would achieve.

The rest of us could then refuse to participate.

We are not obliged to wear Hijab, circumcise our newborn sons, mediate or avoid homosexuality to validate other spiritual beliefs. Why should we be obliged to pretend that a male is literally female?

Dragoncake Fri 13-Jul-18 08:46:12

YY Errol. Transsexuals are getting a very raw deal here.

Floorplan Fri 13-Jul-18 08:49:49

They are peaktransing as we speak apparently (transexuals). But wouldn't you if the medical condition you had was being eradicated from British law.

Floorplan Fri 13-Jul-18 08:52:35

They are our natural allies as we, they and lesbians are all being erased. No wonder lesbians were the first to outright March in protest (to my knowledge ) as they are being erased twice! What must that feel like.

OvaHere Fri 13-Jul-18 08:55:08

If gender identity is enshrined in law it occurs to me that those of us sadly born without a gender identity are going to be very marginalised and vulnerable.

We are probably going need campaigns, funding and support groups to raise awareness of how much people born without a gender identity suffer and are oppressed in a society that caters to those who have one.

womanformallyknownaswoman Fri 13-Jul-18 08:57:01

Defining gender as a religious belief makes great sense.

Who's their God?

Floorplan Fri 13-Jul-18 08:58:43

Their God is the Gender Fairy

Floorplan Fri 13-Jul-18 08:59:37

She is the Tooth Fairy's cousin twice removed

FesteringCarbuncle Fri 13-Jul-18 09:01:11

Of course it shouldn't. It is entirely subjective
We should be fighting against gender norms not reinforcing them

FesteringCarbuncle Fri 13-Jul-18 09:01:43

The great God penis is the ruler of gender

TiltedTowers Fri 13-Jul-18 09:01:47

yeh if we were really moving forward we'd all accept more feminine men and more masculine women.

Making genders MorE specified is nonsense.

TiltedTowers Fri 13-Jul-18 09:03:38

@mrsterrypratchett yes absolutely that is the crux of what is so ludicrous

SpartacusAutisticus Fri 13-Jul-18 09:23:24

Legislating to protect gender stereotypes within the context of equality law is utterly bonkers.

Imnobody4 Fri 13-Jul-18 10:09:42

Exactly SpartacusAutisticus.

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