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#notalltranswomen

(354 Posts)
BadasIwannaB Thu 12-Jul-18 14:14:18

An argument people often make when women voice their concerns about women only spaces:

‘Well hang on a second, I know quite a few trans women and they are just considerate nice people who just want to get on with their lives etc.’

Why can’t people see that this is spectacularly missing the point in just the same way as arguing ‘well NOT ALL MEN are [rapists/sexual harassers/misogynists/a danger to women]’?

I mean, I’m friends with a lot of men - they aren’t all bad. I’m even in an intimate relationship with one. But would that be a legit rebuttal to the arguments that women should have protected spaces without men? Clearly not! I’m not insulting my (or your) friends who are men, or implying men are all rapists etc. by agreeing that women should have protected spaces without men in them.

Similarly, then, why think that those who argue that these protected spaces should not be available to trans women must be assuming that all trans women are rapists/sexual harrassers etc., and must be saying something that’s terribly insulting to their (or your) friends who are trans women?

UpstartCrow Thu 12-Jul-18 14:26:55

It also relies on the tedious assumption that the people fighting to keep women's spaces women only cannot possibly have any friends or family who are transgender.

Snappity Thu 12-Jul-18 14:56:02

It also relies on the tedious assumption that the people fighting to keep women's spaces women only cannot possibly have any friends or family who are transgender.

This old trope.

The conclusion is nothing that society hasn’t already figured out. If you’re accused of any kind of inappropriate -ism, don’t defend yourself by citing a particular action or relationship. It’s understandable that doing so seems like the best solution, but it’s probably better to keep your mouth shut. Or at least be prepared to cite 50+ data points rather than the vague existence of “some” friends.
From Psychology Today www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-inertia-trap/201405/why-every-racist-mentions-their-black-friend

FloralBunting Thu 12-Jul-18 14:58:32

Hmm. Way to ignore the OP, Snappity.

PeakPants Thu 12-Jul-18 15:01:53

So Snappity can you explain why it's appropriate for me to share a space with a male-bodied person with a penis who feels female but inappropriate for me to share a space with a male-bodied person with a penis who feels male? What precisely IS it that makes the first situation absolutely cool and the second one not so much? I have never ever heard anyone be able to explain this properly so I await your answer eagerly.

Pratchet Thu 12-Jul-18 15:08:35

Well, the most vocal activists for access to women's spaces are the ones with the least respect for women's boundaries so therefore most likely to be in our private spaces. There could be a hundred lovely trans people living up the road, but you're naked in a gym shower with a TRA behind the curtain who once threatened to slice open your spine. So they're the ones that have to matter.

SpartacusAutisticus Thu 12-Jul-18 16:13:14

"...can you explain why it's appropriate for me to share a space with a male-bodied person with a penis who feels female but inappropriate for me to share a space with a male-bodied person with a penis who feels male?"

I'd love to know the answer to this too.

PeakPants Thu 12-Jul-18 16:24:27

There is no answer beyond ‘you’re mean’ and ‘trans women risk being attacked by men’. So do gay men, black men, gender non conforming men. Nobody has ever suggested that they go in female spaces as a means of protection.

PersonWithAVulva Thu 12-Jul-18 17:02:45

I hate the 'not all transwomen' argument. of course its not all transwomen, same as its not all men. But as transwomen are male, and it literally just takes a male saying he is a woman to become a transwoman, there is no difference between transwomen and men. So no, not all transwomen, but the same amoutn fo them as men.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Thu 12-Jul-18 17:13:06

Decent men, of whom I know a number, wouldn't force their way into female only spaces. They respect them and understand our boundaries. They are husbands, fathers, brothers, sons and friends and they care about our safety, privacy and dignity. They class men who do force their way in as creepy and perverted, regardless of how those men identify.

Sure NATWALT but just by demanding to be allowed into sex segregated spaces TW and their enablers are proving they think women who insist on retaining their boundaries are just hysterical feather brained moppets who don't know what's good for us. Hint: it's what's good for men.

Hyppolyta Thu 12-Jul-18 17:16:36

Snappity will never answer, because there is no answer.

TWAW is like religion.
It only works if you believe and have faith. Once you start asking questions, it all falls apart.

Snappity Thu 12-Jul-18 17:23:47

So Snappity can you explain why it's appropriate for me to share a space with a male-bodied person with a penis who feels female but inappropriate for me to share a space with a male-bodied person with a penis who feels male? What precisely IS it that makes the first situation absolutely cool and the second one not so much? I have never ever heard anyone be able to explain this properly so I await your answer eagerly.

When I get changed I don't go looking at other women's genitals, nor do most of the women I know. I wouldn't know if someone had a penis.

So, hey, as I don't look at other women's genitals I am not the right person to ask. Ask one of the other handful who do look maybe?

UpstartCrow Thu 12-Jul-18 17:27:38

Women on this forum will be familiar with the cry 'if only you knew some trans people!' It's on the official bingo card, along with accusations of looking at other people genitals.

SomeDyke Thu 12-Jul-18 17:54:58

Here is my latest attempt. From a females point of view:

1) Based on easily-accessible information what is the most reliable way to increase your safety?

2) Based on similar information, what is the similarly most reliable way to increase your level of comfort in intimate spaces?

Given that males commit >90% of sexual assaults (ONS for 2017), and given that male is an objective criterion (as opposed to gender identity or any other subjective criterion), then 1) is answered by requiring intimate spaces are female only.

Then 2) is also answered for me personally, in that I then would have a much lower chance of seeing a surprise penis, and also would feel safer since I knew males were being excluded.

This says nothing at all about the crime rates for transwomen, because even if the risk were substantially reduced for males who were transwomen compared to other males, perception of it would not be, and the risk of imposters would be substantially increased as well.

Surely the logic of this is unassailable? Both statistically and in terms of something that could actually be implemented.................And who would want to not implement this? If so, please give your reasons (extra marks if you use Bayes Theorem)................(Write on only one side of the paper, and answers to separate questions to be in a separate answer booklet, please use blue or blue-black ink only.......).

loveyouradvice Thu 12-Jul-18 17:56:31

Well, the most vocal activists for access to women's spaces are the ones with the least respect for women's boundaries so therefore most likely to be in our private spaces. There could be a hundred lovely trans people living up the road, but you're naked in a gym shower with a TRA behind the curtain who once threatened to slice open your spine. So they're the ones that have to matter.

I so agree... and I feel unbelievably sad for the transsexuals who are as threatened as women by what is happening... and are called TruScum Unbelievable.... But sadly it is not about them, it has become FAR bigger than that

loveyouradvice Thu 12-Jul-18 17:57:44

I love the way Snappity didnt actually answer the question posed... but pretended to....

Have another go? And actually answer the question?

MsMcWoodle Thu 12-Jul-18 18:08:24

snapitty is trying to shame us, however it is important for us to know what genitals someone has, as it is via genitals we are raped.

PeakPants Thu 12-Jul-18 18:10:27

Snappity no I don’t tend to stare at genitals either. So following your logic, it shouldn’t matter whether I get changed with a man who feels male then? Seeing as I am not staring at anyone’s genitals? And additionally, I guess a trans woman could also get changed with a natal man seeing as nobody should be looking at the other person’s genitals? Right?

I mean if you argued to totally abolish sex segregation I would have at least a modicum of respect for your argument. But the way you frame it now, it totally falls apart- it’s not defensible on any level. You say that in respect of non-op trans women- doesn’t matter, don’t look at genitals. But for natal men who have similar bodies to non-op trans women, suddenly it DOES matter. And the difference seems to be some inner feeling, which i would be totally unaware of when sharing the changing room with these people.

Your answer only looks at things from trans women’s viewpoint- it totally ignores the feelings and rights of natal women.

PeakPants Thu 12-Jul-18 18:14:50

And yes Snappity have a go at ANSWERING THE QUESTION. What is the difference between a non-op trans woman and a natal man that makes it fine for the former to be in female spaces but not the latter. I am interested in the material difference- not whether anyone looks at anyone’s genitals.

Oh and PS I do look at people’s genitals when I get changed/showered. Not in a creepy or pervy way, but I do see them. I suspect I am not the only one so if you work on the basis that I do see them, why is a trans woman’s penis okay but a natal man’s is not.

Imnobody4 Thu 12-Jul-18 18:22:36

Yes Snappity please just once answer the question

SpartacusAutisticus Thu 12-Jul-18 18:44:43

Except very very rarely, Snappity, women don't need to see men's genitals to know they're men. Often we don't even need to see them at all, we can smell them.

SpartacusAutisticus Thu 12-Jul-18 18:45:42

Smell men that is.

pombear Thu 12-Jul-18 18:58:10

Oh FFS. Are we all pretending that we don't 'see' other people in our life.

The reason we don't 'see' genitals in our day to day life when we're in intimate changing spaces is because we unconsciously do a scan of people. Not just their genitals, just people. We're not 'staring', we're doing a normal human scan of surroundings.

And most of our experiences register 'what we normally experience'. And most of us, who are NOT staring at genitals in changing spaces, would notice 'that's not what we normally experience' if there's an unexpected penis. Be it clothed, and with other signifiers that usually = male. Or unclothed in a changing space. Our brain and eyes do a 'ordinary vs unexpected' scan unconsciously to help us navigate safely through life. And when something flags 'unexpected' it brings it forward to more conscious thought.

It's the same way that most people do an unconscious 'fight/flight' scan of anyone in their vicinity. (No, I'm not doing an 'all men are perps' post - we all do it, 'who is this person, is it a friend or a foe, do I already know them, what is my reaction to them' - subconsciously and very low level in daily life). It's how we navigate the world as humans.

Some people have heightened perceptions during this 'scan', either because of previous learned experience or just have a natural propensity to noticing difference, out of the 'ordinary' for their normal day to day life, 'super face recognisers' etc.

It's why I was castigated by some posters on a previous thread for 'looking at' a potential transwoman. My brain signalled 'out of the ordinary' and brought it to my conscious attention as I walked past.

longtimelurkingtrans Thu 12-Jul-18 19:02:43

Hi long time lurker first time posting, I am in full agreement over the need for female only spaces. I can't for the life of me see why anyone who still has an intact penis feels the need to visit a female changing room, More and more now sports centres/swimming pools have individual locking cubicles so find one that does, Retail therapy/shopping then it's not rocket science when it comes to your size just buy off the peg and exchange if wrong size, I prefer to shop online and more choice than on the high street, I feel the TRA's are effing things up big time for people like me who are just wanting to live a normal conflict free life after all lets face it woman are our biggest ally lets not piss them off, When as a gay male getting abuse it was women who kept me safe and my female friends still do now. I know this is a feminist board but just wanted to say hi and I support a lot of your view points on this

PersonWithAVulva Thu 12-Jul-18 19:15:20

TRAs are certainly creating problems where before there were none. The honour system is well and truly broke, and all because of a bunch of screaming misogynistic homophobic narcissistic blokes who cannot stand women saying no to them,.

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