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Look what happened when Alison Moyet refused to be called a cis woman **title amended at request of OP**

(116 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 09:48:55

"You can identify as anything you want these days, except as a woman. Consider what happened to British singer Alison Moyet. Last week, on Twitter, she said she didn’t want to be known as a c*s-woman, just as a woman. ‘I defend everyone’s right to have the pronoun that they choose and will honour it’, she diplomatically said. And ‘I do not choose C*s for mine’, she continued. ‘It took women like me long enough to own the title “woman” in the first place. It’s a long enough word for me.’ The response to this calm, clear, polite act of self-definition? Fury. And insult. And abuse. On such a voluble level that Moyet eventually recanted her linguistic heresy, deleted her tweet, and left Twitter."
Read rest of the article here.

Moyet's response to being 'forcibly assigned' the c*s label was quite polite and restrained (far more so than I can ever muster). Yet she was relentlessly told by the twitterverse to 'stfu woman' with a pile of 'hate tweets' - that she should accept it, like it or not.

Moyet has several follow up tweets, including this one where she says:
"I will name you as you identify. Must you afford me less?"

Apparently the answer is "no". And more reasons to stfu and accept it. hmm

'Woman' is not terra nullius, we are 52%. We will not be hoodwinked into giving up our names, only for males to claim them (that is what the c-prefix is all about). Our answer is "no" and is not the start of a 'negotiation'.

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 09:51:34

This political tactic is an important one to discuss. However, it is on the list of 'banned words/terms' on MN.

LangCleg Wed 11-Jul-18 09:51:52

We should get a new acronym...

CACBG?

Coercively Assigned Cis by Genderists?

TrollTheRespawnJeremy Wed 11-Jul-18 09:51:55

This is pretty appalling. I am a woman and won’t let anyone tell me otherwise.

How can you ask for acceptance if you can’t accept 52% of the population?

LangCleg Wed 11-Jul-18 09:53:06

I think we're allowed to discuss usage and validity of the term. What we're not allowed to do is call other people it, especially if they reject it as a term.

That's how I understand the roolz, anyway.

Bowlofbabelfish Wed 11-Jul-18 09:54:53

Pretty much sums up the attitude to women doesn’t it?

We cannot say no, ever, to anything, because it is an act of literal violence towards men.

Why should she be deluged with hatred, threats and abuse for a measured tweet? So she’s closed her account? Another voice silenced. Makes me very angry.

Come on over to FWR, Alison, should you be reading - pull up a pew and have a brew there’s none of that rubbish here.

YetAnotherSpartacus Wed 11-Jul-18 10:01:45

That was an excellent article.

Waddlelikeapenguin Wed 11-Jul-18 10:04:15

Yeah well that's a pretty good summary
You can identify as anything you want these days, except as a woman

The gender believers are intolerant of those who not follow their faith...

Deathgrip Wed 11-Jul-18 10:16:59

Does anyone else ever have a moment of confusion when they agree with an article posted by a site like this?

I mean, really... www.spiked-online.com/spiked-review/article/sex-after-metoo/21514#.W0XJ92LTWEc

Typeractive Wed 11-Jul-18 10:18:00

Great article. Thanks for sharing.

I really like Brendan O'Neill's journalism.

arranfan Wed 11-Jul-18 10:32:10

It's not unusual for me to like particular articles by someone even if I disagree with their overall approach or outlook. I'm OK with that as long it's acceptable that I'm not signalling similarity of thought or perspective over everything that they write/say.

Moyet's experience dovetails into the Ronson piece that someone posted yesterday on how a perceived mis-step on social media can rapidly descend into a baying mob.

YetAnotherSpartacus Wed 11-Jul-18 10:34:06

Moyet's experience dovetails into the Ronson piece that someone posted yesterday on how a perceived mis-step on social media can rapidly descend into a baying mob

Yes, time to reconsider 'moral panic' theory in light of teh interwebs maybe?

LangCleg Wed 11-Jul-18 10:36:31

Does anyone else ever have a moment of confusion when they agree with an article posted by a site like this?

Does anyone have a moment of confusion after they watch a Riley Dennis video or read thirty thousand tweets threatening VAWG?

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 10:37:06

Bowl, thankfully it does look like she is back on Twitter.
Still, the Genderist Faithful outnumber sane women by about 3:1 or 4:1. But at least AM is seeing some support seep through the madness of this Brave New Gender World.

Bumbungo Wed 11-Jul-18 10:39:54

"Indeed, trans activism looks increasingly like misogyny in drag"

Indeed.

Bowlofbabelfish Wed 11-Jul-18 10:54:50

Ah good on her!

Flameproof cardie on Alison! Fight the good fight!

Graham Linehan had a wonderful response to the abuse which was something like ‘the answer is no, you fucking useless woke versions of the religious police.’ grin don’t apologise for sincerely held, politely expressed beliefs.

TheBiologicalWoman Wed 11-Jul-18 10:57:33

Alison's spelling is being attacked on Twitter today. Is that all they've got?

IrianOfW Wed 11-Jul-18 11:02:05

'trans activism looks increasingly like misogyny in drag'

Quite!

arranfan Wed 11-Jul-18 11:11:15

Linehan: useless woke versions of the religious police

I was thinking about this (albeit slightly different terms) this morning. How the extremists on a continuum (or in hierarchy) will attract all of the publicity as representative of their faith/ideology while others in that space are left thinking, "Not in my name. But, I shouldn't have to state that".

As ever, it's very probably not the majority that people have difficulty with but the extreme viewpoints that garner publicity. But when it's extreme viewpoints that drive a political agenda that raises especial concerns.

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 11:38:21

Lots of women are seeing the hostile takeover of 'woman', here

"But until you understand that the word ‘woman’ has a meaning already, and it belongs to people like me and that we need it; until you understand that by appropriating that name, you are breaking down the ideas, the representation, the spaces and the services women have fought for for years; until you understand that women are not men, that it is because of men and only because of men that women need distinct ideas, spaces and services, I will be campaigning against your stance."

Loads of women everywhere are waking up, and are saying "no! hell no!"

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 11:39:38

you fucking useless woke versions of the religious police
grin

LittleLebowski Wed 11-Jul-18 11:43:36

Here’s a tip for male-to-female trans-people and their lefty male allies: if you find yourself insulting a woman because she describes herself as a woman, you’ve lost the plot, and you’ve lost the right to call yourself a progressive person.

Yeah Owen Jones and the rest of the brocialist society.

AnyFucker Wed 11-Jul-18 11:47:39

Excellent article by MrO'Neill there

Soubriquet Wed 11-Jul-18 11:50:16

Funny isn't it

We are being told we MUST accept trans women are women. To not do so, is akin to murdering puppies

Yet if we turn round and say I refuse to be known as a cis woman, you may as well just admit to skinning puppies alive

TellsEveryoneRealFacts Wed 11-Jul-18 11:51:46

I'd probably rephrase the title to 'the only people allowed to identify as wemen these days, are men'.

ShotsFired Wed 11-Jul-18 11:52:09

I really like some of the clarity of articulation in that article, e.g.

the bizarre insistence that she and the rest of us define ourselves in relation to the tiny, strange world of trans-activism. Against the expectation that we should constantly declare the fact that we are not trans by saying instead that we are cis

and

it might just be a smidgen misogynistic to suggest that womanhood is such a slight and flimsy thing that it can be achieved by a mere act of self-declaration

imwideawake Wed 11-Jul-18 11:52:09

I've always loved Alison Moyet!

Bump

imwideawake Wed 11-Jul-18 11:54:50

OP any chance you could get a title change? Include the words Alison Moyet.
It would stay in trending for longer and catch the eye of the main posters.
The more people who read about this the better.

Either that or keep bumping.

bigKiteFlying Wed 11-Jul-18 11:58:26

"I will name you as you identify. Must you afford me less?"

It does seem to be all one way.

It does feel like I’m being told it wrong to be worried about my own children’s' actual safety while at same time I’m not worried enough about adult strangers fears over safety.

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 13:12:19

OP any chance you could get a title change? Include the words Alison Moyet.

What do you suggest?

"Look what happened when Alison Moyet refused to be called a cis woman"?

It had the banned word, so I was too afraid to use it in the title.

arranfan Wed 11-Jul-18 13:15:53

LaSqrrl - Maybe ask MNHQ is it OK for use elsewhere as the language guidance seems to be implemented on FWR more than elsewhere?

When Alison Moyet refused to call herself a cis woman?

FusionChefGeoff Wed 11-Jul-18 13:20:55

I think you can use 'cis' when discussing its general use. You just can't say to a poster that they are a cis-woman

arranfan Wed 11-Jul-18 13:25:57

'Woman' is not terra nullius"

Has anyone else had the passing thought that that would make an interesting T-shirt? And then wondered whether it would fall under Theme Park/other venue's dress codes for "inflammatory or offensive statements" and thus be deemed "inappropriate"?

noeffingidea Wed 11-Jul-18 13:40:02

Thats a terrific article, says what it needs to very clearly. I wonder if there will be a backlash.
Personally I think attacking Alison Moyet was a bad tactic. She's still very popular and just seems so, well, nice. It does come across as bullying a nice decent person.

UpstartCrow Wed 11-Jul-18 13:40:59

Is anyone else starting to see the Scapegoat/Golden Child dynamic in all of this?

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 13:50:27

When Alison Moyet refused to call herself a cis woman?

Wrong emphasis. Her objection was that it was forcibly thrust upon her (probably in the name of 'good allyship').

OK, so I will ask if they will change it.

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 13:53:05

I have put in a request to have it changed

Melamin Wed 11-Jul-18 14:04:15

I love singing along to her Raggle Taggle Gypsies O grin

I saw that bullying unfold on Twitter the other day shock and the piece written above is good.

imwideawake Wed 11-Jul-18 14:14:45

How about Alison Moyet.

She's much loved. I'm sure lots of people would click on it for the name alone. Out of curiosity.

imwideawake Wed 11-Jul-18 14:16:22

I see you've done it.

imwideawake Wed 11-Jul-18 14:17:57

It's definitely out and out bullying of women who have the temerity to speak their own minds.

Throughout history, men have tried to silence women and prevent them from speaking out and having an opinion.
Nothing has changed.

KERALA1 Wed 11-Jul-18 14:41:44

The world has gone utterly mad. Thats a great article. Saw Alison Moyet sing recently she is fab, forgotten how good, song after song, all great. Alison if you are reading the silent majority of women are absolutely on your side!

hackmum Wed 11-Jul-18 15:05:07

I have never been a fan of Brendan O'Neill, but he is absolutely right on this. A great piece, written with clarity and conviction. The one thing I can say for him is that he is always fearless - he doesn't care what people think about him. Of course, men writing about transactivism never receive the same abuse as women who do, but even so, well done.

ErrolTheDragon Wed 11-Jul-18 15:19:42

It's definitely ok to use 'cis' in discussion, there have been a couple of threads recently with it in the title haven't there? And it's ok for anyone who wants to apply it to themselves to do so. Bute they can't then say 'and so are you'.

Anyway - if Alison Moyet wants to come and slum it with women here as a refuge from the nastiness of Twitter she'd be very welcome and no one will be allowed to isomerise her.

Datun Wed 11-Jul-18 15:57:46

And yet we have (apparent) women here all denying that the misogyny even exists. Or is confined to a small handful of outliers.

Alison Moyet! Just saying she doesnt identify as something. Politely.

Getting abused and forced to comply on pain of further abuse.

This IS transactivism.

HopeMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 11-Jul-18 16:21:31

Hi all! We've changed the title as requested. Sorry that the new guidelines are proving confusing on the issue of exact words and whatnot - just remember that we are all trying our best to be sensible and decent up at HQ and that we like you MNers (and you us, we hope, most of the time) and hopefully we'll not go too far wrong. smile

HopeMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 11-Jul-18 16:25:03

<KILLS THREAD STONE DEAD>

arranfan Wed 11-Jul-18 16:40:28

You are very powerful HopeMumsNet - title change to DEATH in 3.5mins smile

Please run a MN video tutorial on death ray stares and interventions. Even a Paddington Hard Stare would do.

LangCleg Wed 11-Jul-18 16:44:05

OMG - Hope has her very own Mumsnet portal! It kills threads AND EVERYTHING!

Cadencia Wed 11-Jul-18 16:54:02

Great article - thanks for sharing.

Love Alison Moyet!

HopeMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 11-Jul-18 16:54:25

bless you both for posting, was beginning to feel quaite paranoid.

arranfan Wed 11-Jul-18 16:55:24

R0wantrees posted this Ronson TED talks in another thread and it seems useful here.

"Jon Ronson gave this talk in 2015, "How one tweet can ruin your life'

he concludes that 'perhaps there are two types of people in the world, those who favour humans over ideology and those who favour ideology over humans. He says he favours humans over ideology, but believes the ideologues are winning & they are creating a stage for constant artificial high dramas where everyone is either a magnificent hero or a sickening villain... which is not true about our fellow humans since we are all stupid & clever, we are grey areas '

'For the longest time Jon Ronson reveled in the fact that Twitter gave a voice to the voiceless ... the social media platform gave us all a chance to speak up and hit back at perceived injustice. But somewhere along the way, things took a turn. In this passionate, eloquent talk, Ronson explains how too often we end up behaving like a baying mob — and that it's time to rethink how we interact with others online'

I think it has a great deal of relevance, especially about power and the threat to democracy."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI

Waddlelikeapenguin Wed 11-Jul-18 16:59:30

@hopemumsnet
quaite paranoid
Please tell me this was not a typo & you are in fact from Morningside grin

LangCleg Wed 11-Jul-18 17:05:18

The portal has its very own dictionary!

Bowlofbabelfish Wed 11-Jul-18 17:06:53

Ex- denizen of Morningside here (gives secret handshake...)

HopeMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 11-Jul-18 17:08:35

<says nothing> <adjusts twinset> <goes to yon fancy Waitrose>

Waddlelikeapenguin Wed 11-Jul-18 17:23:08

Bowl there I was already thinking you perfect!
hope Way-trrose surely? grin

arranfan Wed 11-Jul-18 17:28:39

It's always Morningside, never Hunts Cross (not that I'm bitter - but I lived < 3 miles from the place immortalised in ^The Liver Birds^).

I wonder what the reactions of those stereotyped Morningsiders Maisie Mac's Gran and her neighbour Mrs McKitty would be to the tweetage dished out to that nice Alison Moyet? Is there enough tablet in the world to make up for that?

Oblomov18 Wed 11-Jul-18 17:48:14

I read the previous Alison Moyet thread.

Anlaf Wed 11-Jul-18 17:54:46

This may out me but I once threw my house keys into a big cooncil street bin in <location redacted>.

As i attempted to reach them, legs waggling in the air and with much grunting, a <location redacted> wifie approach with cardie and raised eyebrow.

"Have you... loast something?" she asked.

I was like FFS no i just fancied a rummage "yes, thank you". She excellently went to fetch me a step though, legend.

Anyway, Alison Moyet!

Bowlofbabelfish Wed 11-Jul-18 18:33:40

waddle I miss it immensely. It was like I’d found my true place in life ...(sobs quietly...)

pachyderm Wed 11-Jul-18 19:29:29

Love Glinner. Just struck me that as an Irish man of around 50, he is well old enough to remember the theocracy we grew up in, the dogma in schools, the compulsory religious observance and groupthink. And he recognises this nonsensical cult for what it is. And he thinks "fuck that shit".

flowers to Glinner.

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 21:47:09

Thanks for the title change @HopeMumsnet

I read the previous Alison Moyet thread.
Where is that Ob?

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross Wed 11-Jul-18 21:54:19

I am a woman. Anyone who wants me to call myself a ciswoman can fuck right off.

LaSqrrl Wed 11-Jul-18 22:06:27

Also, wanted to do a quick thanks to stealthsquirrelnutkin for finding the article link.

Clearly, a squirrel theme, but we are two different squirrels.

AnotherQuoll Wed 11-Jul-18 22:48:13

They re a bunch of sexist and misogynistic malignant narcs. Bothering to engage with them anywhere beyond telling them "No" and "Tough luck", and you haven't a hope of them ever

AnotherQuoll Wed 11-Jul-18 22:58:52

That was meant to be: ...no hope of them ever leaving you alone.

ChiefClerkDrumknott Wed 11-Jul-18 23:08:36

What a woman! Funny how women don’t get to identify as women, but men do.

I’ve experienced similar (although not being famous not to quite this extent), people trying to force cis upon me when I tell them I am not. It’s ridiculous

Arkengarthdale Sun 15-Jul-18 23:11:58

Just got round to reading this thread and have to say there is so much in it it I just love. Misogyny In Drag (we may have a useful new acronym). Alison Moyet. Morningsaide. Excellent stuff 😁

BlackForestCake Sun 15-Jul-18 23:29:50

The important thing here is that Alison Moyet is "inclusive" and believes or pretends to believe that trans women are actually women. But that isn't enough. Only complete, unquestioning subservience will do.

Arkengarthdale Mon 16-Jul-18 00:24:49

And bollocks to that. Girl bollocks, obvs 😂

womanformallyknownaswoman Mon 16-Jul-18 00:56:25

I observe what's missed often is that CIS is not a benign word but is verbal abuse. VA is where one person tells another what they think and feel - that they know better what is right for the target 🎯 person- it's a central facet of coercive control.

So each time someone or all are labelled CIS it's a putdown of huge harmful proportions- a dismissal of women as individuals and peers reducing them to objects of derision and labels of someone's else's choice- like calling a black person "native" or some such derogatory term, designed to shame the person to silence and keep them in their place.

So I'm very pleased @MNHQ banned it - is it banned everywhere or just on FWR?

GardenGeek Mon 16-Jul-18 01:00:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thebewilderness Mon 16-Jul-18 02:06:16

I didnt know it was a banned word haha, I have said it loads!
biscuit

GardenGeek Mon 16-Jul-18 02:14:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LaSquirrel Mon 16-Jul-18 04:10:51

Slagging off our International Treasure will not win you any friends in these parts. Just sayin'.

GardenGeek Mon 16-Jul-18 04:41:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

InionEile Mon 16-Jul-18 04:54:24

The 'cis' thing is supposed to refer to anyone who identifies as the gender that they were 'assigned at birth' (to use the lamentable terminology the transactivists use), yet does anyone else notice that they hardly ever hear the word 'cis-man'? It's almost entirely women who are being bullied into terming ourselves 'cis-women'. Also, the harshest most shrill hatred is always directed at women and comes from transwomen and their allies. Transmen keep a remarkably low profile by comparison.

This basic reality of transactivism today is what alerted me to the awareness that, as O'Neill says in the article above, transactivism is nothing more than misogyny in drag.

I love Graham Linehan for the stand he is taking these days on trans issues. The level of bullying and hatred and even just plain old virtue signaling fired his way has been phenomenal but he is standing firm. I wish there were more sensible, brave public figures like himself and Alison Moyet.

thebewilderness Mon 16-Jul-18 04:56:13

I told you yesterday or the day before that the terms you were using were banned and so did a few others. I and even went so far as to quote you the passage in the guidelines. You responded with a biscuit.
I simply returned the compliment when I read the lie you posted on this thread.
When people come over here from AIBU we usually try to help them get used to the different rules here. Several people have tried to help you, only to be dismissed or laughed off. Obviously you are feeling picked on so I will not trouble you further.

GardenGeek Mon 16-Jul-18 05:02:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GardenGeek Mon 16-Jul-18 05:13:44

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thebewilderness Mon 16-Jul-18 05:16:12

Already don, thanks.

GardenGeek Mon 16-Jul-18 05:23:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LaSquirrel Mon 16-Jul-18 11:47:26

Doesn't know the rules, knows the rules, doesn't need to know the rules, knows the rules.
OK then!

You sound rather young and arrogant GG. Just saying.

TweetleBeetlesBattle Mon 16-Jul-18 12:28:14

Thanks for highlighting the article. I'm horrified there seems no way to stop this nonsense. I too am a woman, and see no reason to be redefined.

GardenGeek Mon 16-Jul-18 12:37:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Baroquehavoc Mon 16-Jul-18 12:55:43

GardenGeek. Why are you trying to derail a thread about women, particularly Alison moyet, being forced to call themselves cis, and make it all about you?

Baroquehavoc Mon 16-Jul-18 13:02:53

The only time I see men embrace 'cis' is when they used it as a way of telling women they are wrong.

As in, 'as a white straight cis man, I'm total supportive of tranwomen using women's bathrooms'

I've never seen it used as an example of how they have more advantages than transmen, women or other males.

GardenGeek Mon 16-Jul-18 13:34:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rufustheyawningreindeer Mon 16-Jul-18 13:45:41

garden

and I dont need to get used to your 'rules' either

They arent FWR rules, they are MNHQ

But obviously its completely up to you what you post smile

LangCleg Mon 16-Jul-18 13:46:35

Where's Littlebrowndog when you need her?

Short and sweet. That's how I like it.

GardenGeek Mon 16-Jul-18 13:49:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rufustheyawningreindeer Mon 16-Jul-18 13:51:44

No problem garden

because I was never saying anything vexatious or offensive in the first place

Same here...though I haven't checked my emails today so i could have that wrong grin

ScrubTheDecks Mon 16-Jul-18 14:08:03

Deathgrip Spiked Online and Brendan O'Neill will not be found to be the friend of the feminist, and O'Neill's article will be part of Spiked's position against Identity Politics rather than in favour of feminism.

But that does not undermine the points made in the article in question.

Lottie35 Mon 16-Jul-18 19:13:15

We're now called 'Cis' (ridiculous) but can't call a guy a 'trans'. I don;t get it?!

thebewilderness Mon 16-Jul-18 19:25:09

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8huXkSaL7o

TheBiologicalWoman Mon 16-Jul-18 21:34:44

And...they're off again but Alison's taking no prisoners

mobile.twitter.com/Glinner/status/1018894059430129664

boatyardblues Mon 16-Jul-18 23:08:15

I am so glad Alison is back, not cowed by the Twitter bullies. Go Alison! ❤️ flowers

LaSquirrel Mon 16-Jul-18 23:16:31

I think those who showed AM support on Twitter (links to supportive places) helped her. That she was not "being unreasonable" and her position is an entirely reasonable one.

I did do a couple of supportive tweets. It is important when someone is under attack like that.

Beamur Mon 16-Jul-18 23:28:01

So, Graham should tackle the bigger issues, like Russia, etc...coz that's more important hmm

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