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What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

(878 Posts)
DJLippy Mon 09-Jul-18 22:22:17

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

MIdgebabe Mon 09-Jul-18 22:33:39

Yeah, an attempt to move forward. Trans and women.

Unisex for many things can be private and secure. So m/f and unisex probably overkill

A third space aimed at transpeople might be less good, I can imagine a group of men targeting transwomen or Transmen

Specialist services...yes I would have thought that trans specialist services would be preferable. Practically how is that managed with a relatively smalll trans population?

With hospitals , the small transgender population means that private rooms might be best-at least then trans are getting the nicer option

Prison difficult. Women are discrimated and violated because of sex, trans people because of gender. Women should not be subjected to male bodies. My preference ..those without the male bits maybe default to WOmans prison, those with male bits to the male prison. Case by case review requires that prisons understand the sex/gender combinations. In all cases everyone should be able to feel safe.

Sport....handing over the baton...

Snappity Tue 10-Jul-18 01:29:46

So you are saying that the rest of the population is sexed male and female and need and deserve sex specific spaces but trans people - all of them regardless of whether they have a penis or vagina, whether they are fueled by testosterone or oestrogen - all belong in one space together. That is relegating trans people to second class citizens, deprived of a right you assign to the rest of the population.

Materialist Tue 10-Jul-18 01:47:05

No, it doesn't. It gives them MORE rights -- because they can use either the third space OR the space that matches their biological sex.

Materialist Tue 10-Jul-18 01:48:48

And who knows, perhaps you're right, and people won't care about sex-segregated spaces, and over time everyone will use the gender neutral third space, and people will become so used to it, and it will be proven so unproblematic and safe for women even with males present, that all spaces will become gender neutral.

Why not try that experiment?

thebewilderness Tue 10-Jul-18 02:39:40

Part of the affirmation therapy for transgenders is to use the facilities they identify with.
It does rather make the general public responsible for the mental health of transgenders but really, that is what affirmation therapy is all about. Everyone pretending to believe whatever the transgender person believes at any given time.

PositivelyPERF Tue 10-Jul-18 02:51:56

Why not try that experiment?

Because I want to have more confidence that I can let my wee lass, with SNs, go to a toilet, changing room etc that is male free. I already have to protect this vulnerable young woman from perverts, why would I put her in a situation where she is even more vulnerable to abuse?

If an experiment fails, who do you think the most likely victims will be? The males or the females?

Snappity Tue 10-Jul-18 03:17:54

No, it doesn't. It gives them MORE rights -- because they can use either the third space OR the space that matches their biological sex.

Remember that separation is based on sex, not biological sex. Biological sex is the construct added by gender critical feminists.

sunshineHeat Tue 10-Jul-18 03:37:35

Biological sex is not a construct but a fact. Not one created by gender critical feminist or anyone. Maybe God if you are into that sort of thing or the Big Bang.

I'm all for third spaces, in particularly bathrooms. Specially since the default is to make the disabled toilets gender neutral, they often become the "safe bathroom".

AngryAttackKittens Tue 10-Jul-18 03:41:28

Biological sex is determined based on how tall you are, obviously.

(Snappity has been dropping facts in multiple threads tonight.)

DancelikeEmmaGoldman Tue 10-Jul-18 03:46:25

"*Biological sex is the construct added by gender critical feminists.*"

Biological sex is the basis of all life on earth. There are single cell outliers and some proponents of other avenues such parthenogenesis, but all vertebrates are able to reproduce because of sexual dimorphism.

It's just how it is, feminists didn't create biology.

"I'm going to answer a different question here, which is why in the majority of organisms there are only two sexes (forget gender, as gender does not equate sex, and we do not speak of the gender of a duck or of a pine tree cone, or of yeast; gender also has nothing to do with being gay or heterosexual)."
www.quora.com/Why-are-there-two-sexes-How-and-where-did-the-male-and-female-sexes-come-from

AngryAttackKittens Tue 10-Jul-18 03:59:07

Kind of feel like we're hitting the "R U OK Hun?" stage at this point honestly.

Snappity Tue 10-Jul-18 04:42:37

But the Equality Act recognises single sex spaces, not single biological sex spaces. It is a symantic difference but an important one because it stops those on this board who want one space for people with XX chromosomes, another for XY chromosomes while shoving intersex and trans people into a third space.

SPOFS Tue 10-Jul-18 04:49:21

I think we need to take it further than simply adding a third space. Many TRAs argue that there are 164 genders, and that toilets should be segregated by gender. Fine. Let's campaign to make every business, school, hospital, etc. have 164 different toilets in order to accommodate everyone? Surely this is the right solution?

smile

DancelikeEmmaGoldman Tue 10-Jul-18 04:54:41

Sex and biological sex are the same thing - scientific terms which describe an observable reality which is subject to objective tests.

That biological reality is the basis of female oppression - including violence. Biology matters.

Pratchet Tue 10-Jul-18 05:14:52

I would go for turning the men's unisex and keeping the women's sex specific, at least while there's no money for a whole bunch of new resources. Men don't seem to mind the mixed sex and definitely aren't campaigning for single sex, while there are loads of handmaidens women who say they're happy to share spaces. That way, women who want to share can share, trans can get validation by sharing with women, men don't care so they're fine, and women who want sex specific can keep them. It seems like a good middle ground.

Pratchet Tue 10-Jul-18 05:16:23

the Equality Act recognises single sex spaces, not single biological sex spaces
confused
Sex is biological sex.

What did you think it was?

Snappity Tue 10-Jul-18 05:17:03

I would go for turning the men's unisex and keeping the women's sex specific, at least while there's no money for a whole bunch of new resources. Men don't seem to mind the mixed sex and definitely aren't campaigning for single sex, while there are loads of handmaidens women who say they're happy to share spaces. That way, women who want to share can share, trans can get validation by sharing with women, men don't care so they're fine, and women who want sex specific can keep them. It seems like a good middle ground.

That would be unlawful direct discrimination of men.

Pratchet Tue 10-Jul-18 05:19:24

So turning the women's unisex while the men keep single sex is illegal discrimination against women? Because that's what happening.

Men would have to campaign against it. They aren't so they don't mind.

Interesting to see your knee jerk defence of men's rights tho

Snappity Tue 10-Jul-18 05:23:18

Sex is biological sex.

The law refers to sex, not biological sex. Let's not embellish it. The problem is, as I have said, that people interpret biological sex in different ways - often as chromosomal sex or reproductive sex and those interpretations are anti-trans (and anti-intersex) and more about ideology than safety or modesty.

Let's just stick to saying "sex".

Thatjourno Tue 10-Jul-18 05:23:54

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Snappity Tue 10-Jul-18 05:25:54

So turning the women's unisex while the men keep single sex is illegal discrimination against women? Because that's what happening.

No, women's space aren't turning into unisex - although some people on Mumsnet seem to want trans men in female spaces, something I definitely don't want. Trans men belong in with the men.

Snappity Tue 10-Jul-18 05:27:27

There is nothing stupid in defending single sex spaces which I do - but trans women are women.

Flooffloof Tue 10-Jul-18 05:28:06

Fine. Let's campaign to make every business, school, hospital, etc
have 164 different toilets in order to accommodate everyone?
Surely this is the right solution?

I have actually thought this for some time now. The logical conclusion to so many genders is a toilet block for each specific gender. Then no one is set apart. Maybe as rad fems, we should in fact embrace this madness whole heartedly, campaign mightily for however many gender toilets (I read 98 genders) to make everyone feel safe and validated. Why only two genders are ever mentioned and fought over so fiercely is beyond me.
Also while this maybe tongue in cheek, maybe it's another avenue to fight back on, in the same vein as manfriday

TransplantsArePlants Tue 10-Jul-18 05:35:20

Biological sex is the construct added by gender critical feminists

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

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