"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread

[Ereshkigal]

I don't want to take this over as a straight feminist woman but am troubled at the blithe denial on other threads. This is a thread to post evidence of lesbophobia from transactivists and trans allies. I will start with the fragrant Morgane Oger:

mobile.twitter.com/fedupfemme/status/1013132702147588097

[SasBel]

Indeed. Women need to be told who they are attracted to, particularly by men who think they are women.....

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

We cannot see each other on Mumsnet but I sometimes wonder just how many dicks are lolling about on certain threads. Got the giggles about it.

[ChickenMe]

Good idea. It upsets me that this is happening. All the lesbians I know in real life are older (40s) married or partnered off. I doubt they are aware of it and I doubt some winkle owning lesbian would dare bully an older lesbian in the same way.

[NotTerfNorCis]

Here's one by Riley J. Dennis.

'I'm trying to show that a preference for women with vaginas over women with penises might be partially influenced by the prejudices of a cissexist society.'

'If we look a little deeper into this issue, there's a possibility of your genital preferences being at least partially informed by growing up in a cissexist society. There's also the fact that a preference is different from saying you would never do something. [...] Simply saying 'it's my preference, end of discussion' is a good way of sidelining all of those issues and instead centering cis people in a discussion that's about trans people.'

'If intimacy with someone with a penis is triggering for you, I would never suggest that you have to do that. Take your time to heal and work through your trauma at your own pace. Just be aware that the majority of people making the 'I could never date someone with a penis' argument are not doing so because of trauma or triggers.'

'Even if you don't consider yourself a part of [the gender critical and radfem] movements you're siding with them when you use their arguments. Their entire platform is cissexist, and their arguments reflect that.'

Riley ends by telling people lesbians who don't want relationships with transwomen 'not to shout about it' and to consider the transwomen's feelings.

[HotRocker]

Here’s some utter nonsense. On their Twitter thread, which I can’t find now, they were bragging about how female their girl dick is to their 10 year gold star lesbian girlfriend.

medium.com/@transphilosophr/what-is-girldick-9363515e0bfd

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

So, no, I am not shaming you because of your sexual orientation. I am merely asking you to critically reflect on the factors that might shape your attractions.

As it turns out, cisgender lesbians’ disgust toward trans women’s bodies have more to do with cultural conditioning than so-called “preferences.”

www.dailydot.com/irl/lesbian-transgender-woman/

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Transphobic people will assert practically anything to get away from the much simpler truth, what trans people have been saying for decades: that trans women are simply women who were mistakenly assigned male at birth.

You can’t assume someone’s genitals based on their identity, and more so, you might be missing out on sex that’s fun and pleasurable just because you’re unable to see a penis as feminine or a vulva as masculine. How is my permanently attached strapon functionally any different than a cis woman’s detachable strapon?

medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca

[UpstartCrow]

Receipts;
terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

Your dating "preferences" are discriminatory | Riley J. Dennis

Trans women are not "biologically male" | Riley J. Dennis


Your dating "preferences" are discriminatory | Riley J. Dennis


The Cotton Ceiling: You don't respect trans women if you don't consider them women


The Cotton Ceiling Isn't About Lesbians - It's About Transphobes
''If you date women and won't date any trans women ever, it just means you're transphobic.''


The Cotton Ceiling Part Two: Running Into Anti-Transgender Bias While Dating


The Cotton Ceiling: Transphobia, Sex, and Dating (but not transsexuals)


''They resist the penis. The penis to them is the Devil. Anything having to do with penises, they unequivocally oppose, regardless of whether it is exclusionary or irrational.''
www.tgforum.com/wordpress/index.php/the-cotton-ceiling/

“Radfems, you’re not just missing out on great sex. You’re confused about what it means to be a lesbian, or a woman. I don’t care what your physical preferences are or what gender identity you prefer. I do care that you confuse those two things, and thereby insult trans women.
I care that you don’t bother to interrogate the origins of your phallus-based distaste for trans women, and think about whether it’s actually a dislike of the organ that’s happening here or whether transphobia and a refusal to view trans women as women is involved. I care that you assume describing yourself as a lesbian tells others that you prefer what you call a pussy, as if everyone has the same definition of lesbian, woman, or pussy.”

Copy saved on
feminismduh.tumblr.com/post/20046656786/radfems-youre-not-just-missing-out-on-great-sex

[DJLippy]

Teaching lesbians how to suck a cock
www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-trans-woman-lesbian-sex-with-a-penis-414839/

Also, another bastion of feminist empowerment - Vice magasine. It's described as a 'queer' guide which is nice and vague. Is this your female partner or you male-femme partner with a girldick (i.e. a flacid cock.)

I find this article so disturbing - it doesn't seem to be woman focused AT
If it’s an SM scene and we're going for something that easily facilitates forced choking/ being submissive/dropping to your knees, it’s less about the cock and more about the power play (and choking)

Does ANY woman like being choked while giving head?

If it’s an SM scene and we're going for something that easily facilitates forced choking/being submissive/dropping to your knees, it’s less about the cock and more about the power play^ (and choking)

Seeing your partner down on their knees? Yes. The hollowed cheeks and inviting O-shape of the mouth? Yes and yes.The spit and salt and (sometimes) tears that come from taking your partner all the way into your throat? YES..

If your partner's crying during sex here's a hint - STOP!

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/vbqzay/strap-on-blow-jobs-queer-women-lesbian-faux-jobs

This article is blatant rape culture 101 - directed as lesbians.

[FlippinFumin]

And this is what peaked me. I am an old straight bird. But the bloody temerity and male entitlement of this shit makes my skin crawl. When a woman says no she means no. Suck it up. It is not the start of the negotiation. This shit is way beyond any rights of those we have no name for yet. This is rapey and abusive.

[TellsEveryoneRealFacts]

And yet so many lesbians are ok with this, apparently.

I am not a lesbian so perhaps i should stop being enraged on their behalf?

[FlippinFumin]

If so many lesbians are happy with it why are they who are yet to be named still harping on about it.

[AngryAttackKittens]

"So called preferences" is the goadiest thing that a GF ever wrote in the history of goading.

[ChickenMe]

Ugh that autostraddle article, I was going to say please don't post it..it's so RANK..I read it once before and it creeped me out. And the faux jobs one. Hideous

[BlytheByName]

Human beings are allowed sexual boundaries, anyone who can't accept that is a sexual predator.

[LinoleumBlownapart]

It's disturbing! I cannot understand anyone who does not see this as seriously disturbing.

If there is a hypothetical situation between two people then it may be that the individual feelings and complexities of the two individuals mean that a homsexual or hetrosexual falls in love with a transperson, contrary to or regardless of their prefrences. But those are very personal and real life situations, they cannot be applied like blanket rules that MUST be accepted.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

Flippin says: And this is what peaked me. I am an old straight bird. But the bloody temerity and male entitlement of this shit makes my skin crawl. When a woman says no she means no. Suck it up. It is not the start of the negotiation. This shit is way beyond any rights of those we have no name for yet. This is rapey and abusive.

This. Absolutely this. Fuck that shit. Gives me the rage.

I fucked the same sweet man for 17 years. He would found the very thought of choking (or anything I wasn't enthusiastic about) repulsive. What turns these people on is vile Presumably it stems from the grossly misogynistic porn AGP consume, though I suppose they like the porn because they see women as hot submissive sluts. A vicious circle.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

*When I hear that someone doesn't want to have sex with a trans woman because of her penis — say, a lesbian who wants to maintain her gold star status or a straight man who insists he isn’t "gay" — I hear assumptions about how that sex would play out. Many trans women who have penises are not interested in acknowledging that body part during sex, and there are many ways to be respectful of that. Trans women don’t all have the same genital configuration or surgical history, either — our bodies are all different. When it comes to queer women's culture, in particular, many lesbians misguidedly deal with trauma from the patriarchy by attacking essentialist notions of manhood. But the penis is not an essential element of manhood — it can beautifully and comfortably coexist with womanhood in one body.^

www.buzzfeed.com/raquelwillis/the-transgender-dating-dilemma?utm_term=.cgkaM8kev#.tsD1ypwPK

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

This spectre of rape that cis lesbian “radfems” habitually raise, centered around the supposed inherent threat of the phallus, minimizes the appalling rates of physical and sexual violence committed against trans women, particularly trans women of color and sex workers. It also twists the picture of systemic violence to make it look like trans women are a huge, systemic threat to cis lesbians when in fact trans women as a group face incredible systemic barriers in almost every aspect of life.


I care that you don’t bother to interrogate the origins of your phallus-based distaste for trans women, and think about whether it’s actually a dislike of the organ that’s happening here or whether transphobia and a refusal to view trans women as women is involved. I care that you assume describing yourself as a lesbian tells others that you prefer what you call a pussy, as if everyone has the same definition of lesbian, woman, or pussy.

queerfeminism.com/2012/03/27/the-cotton-ceiling-is-real-and-its-time-for-all-queer-and-trans-people-to-fight-back/

[LonginesPrime]

Thanks for starting a new thread for this, OP..

It's all vile, and I'm thankful not to have experienced any of this myself.

[Stopthisnow]

Thank you for starting this thread Ereshkigal, when heterosexual women stand up to the bullying of lesbians, I don’t feel like they are trying to take over anything. On the contrary it is heartening to see heterosexual women standing with us in solidarity against this. In fact even some of the strictest lesbian separatists, now acknowledge that without heterosexual women’s support, there is no hope of stopping these men.

Most of the denial of this comes from heterosexual men who are calling themselves lesbians. No actual self respecting lesbian is ok with this. There are some lesbians that are making money, out of working for organisations that are pushing an ideology that encourages this, they clearly prefer to keep their money over their integrity. Then there are lesbians (mostly younger ones) that want to be part of a community, so go along with it in order to be accepted. There are a few older lesbians who have dedicated their lives to the alphabet soup, and don’t want to give up on it, so will have to deny it is happening or down-play it, in order to quieten the cognitive dissonance they would otherwise experience. There are also some bisexual women who call themselves ‘lesbians’, who endorse this. Ultimately no lesbian is interested in dating males, if a woman dates a male, she is in a heterosexual relationship and so is actively bi or heterosexual by definition, regardless of what she may call herself. The agenda here is exactly have others have said, to erase lesbians boundaries so that heterosexual males can have sexual access to lesbians, and so they can be included in the category of lesbian women. It is absolutely sickening.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

Very glad to hear that lesbians welcome support from heterosexual women, Stopthisnow. You've got mine.

[Stopthisnow]

This lesbian does Prawn and any lesbian who truly cares about women will. Thank you for your support and for being here.

[ArcheryAnnie]

One of the earliest examples I read about was from Avery Edison, who shot to notoriety when - as a nice middle-class white male with a corresponding sense of entitlement - Edison went to Canada without bothering to get the appropriate paperwork, and duly got put into a detention centre. But wait! Edison, being male, got put into a male detention centre, which is totally unfair, dudes, and it was such a harsh, cruel detention centre they didn't even take Edison's phone, so Edison conducted a #FreeAveryEdison campaign from inside.

Anyway, Edison also wrote a piece called "The Best Of Both Worlds", now taken offline, which is an extended whine about being denied PIV sex by a bisexual woman Edison picked up in a gay bar and went home with. This woman knew Edison was trans, was happy to have sex, but didn't want PIV.

This did not please Edison, who wrote this self-pitying rant about how sad this woman's terrible transphobia had made Edison, and how awful it was that this woman hadn't accepted that having Edison's dick inside her wouldn't be like having a man's dick inside her.

I'm revolted and angered all over again by just typing that story out. It isn't enough that a woman is willing to go home with a transwoman. It isn't enough that a woman is willing to have enthusiastic sex with that transwoman. That woman will still be condemned as a bigot if she refuses the peen.

[Ereshkigal]

And mine