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Girls only schools

(53 Posts)
Noviceoftheweek Sat 23-Jun-18 22:53:06

I predicted this a while ago and now it’s come to pass: two prestigious girls schools in NY, Chapin and Brearley, will now accept boys who identify as girls. Where will this all lead?

argumentativefeminist Sat 23-Jun-18 22:56:58

I reckon it'll lead to trans kids getting the education they want just like all the other kids that go to those schools.

Newsofas Sat 23-Jun-18 22:58:38

Means they are not girls schools anymore but are mixed schools. Depends on what your feelings are on that I suppose.

Rufustheyawningreindeer Sat 23-Jun-18 22:59:39

Its ridiculous novice

Reminiscent of the guides i wonder what happens if a female 'identifies' as a male

AuntieStella Sat 23-Jun-18 23:00:00

It came to pass in UK some time ago.

it doesn't seem to have led to any difficulties being reported.

Noviceoftheweek Sat 23-Jun-18 23:00:31

Saddens and angers me. There are fewer places for our girls. Ultimately I suspect there will be no such thing as girls schools.

argumentativefeminist Sat 23-Jun-18 23:01:08

Rufus if a female wants to identify as male then I guess they get to go to a boys school? Hardly the end of the world.

MoggyP Sat 23-Jun-18 23:01:52

"i wonder what happens if a female 'identifies' as a male"

It means they are no longer required to leave. Which could be an important thing for a teen at a time of stress/difficulty/public exams

argumentativefeminist Sat 23-Jun-18 23:02:14

Why do you think girls schools benefit girls? Do boys schools benefit boys? Genuinely curious because I instinctively dislike both and want to see the other side of the argument.

Waddlelikeapenguin Sat 23-Jun-18 23:02:50

I should think it will kill the schools- the usp of a single sex school is that it is single sex, once it is mixed sex it no longer has that sales advantage...

Rufustheyawningreindeer Sat 23-Jun-18 23:03:51

Sorry moggy

I don't understand the 'they are not required to leave' bit

I know guides suggest they leave but it would be nice if they could stay if they wanted to

Rufustheyawningreindeer Sat 23-Jun-18 23:04:49

Absolutely waddle

I wonder if it woukd appear on the prospectus so parents could decide

MoggyP Sat 23-Jun-18 23:12:09

I was talking about the stated policy that I have seen from a (British) school. It appears to be a different one to the school you are talking about.

Rufustheyawningreindeer Sat 23-Jun-18 23:14:04

moggy

Im not talking about a specific school

I would hope that the transboy would be able to stay at the school if they wanted to

I know its not the case with guides, im glad its the case with the school you know about

watchingwithinterest Sat 23-Jun-18 23:21:37

If they have fully transitioned (unlikely at that age) it is fine of course. They are as female as they are going to be.

If not, then they are still biologically men and should be refused on those grounds. They can go to mixed schools and be whatever ID they like from one day to the next.

Any child wishing to self ID should legally wait until they are fully capable of understanding the consequences of their decision and be fully adult, aged 18 or above, therefore it should not affect schools.

A child should be protected at all costs from such huge life changing decisions.

Speaking from a potential trans girl.

shouldwestayorshouldwego Sat 23-Jun-18 23:22:09

The evidence suggests that where there is a difference that between 11 and 16 girls do better in a single sex environment, particularly for STEM subjects and boys do better in a mixed school (and yes that does mean that you can't please everyone). These differences are not apparent in primary or sixth form. The reasoning behind it is that boys tend to answer more questions and are more likely to attend science clubs. The view that science is for boys is reinforced. In a girls school the child who is top in science is a girl, the top five selected for a trip are all girls so encouraging more girls to think about pursuing a career in science/engineering.

argumentativefeminist Sat 23-Jun-18 23:27:11

@shouldwestayorshouldwego Thank you for that, lots to think about! I wonder if those results are affected by the general increased academic pressure of single sex schools which also, in my experience, tend to be selective/grammar/independent schools. Perhaps this encourages academic performance in all subjects in girls but not in boys. Either way, that's not really the point of this thread 😂

Neolara Sat 23-Jun-18 23:28:14

I think it's an odd decision for the parents to send a trans child to a single sex (single gender?) school. If any of my dcs decided they identified as the opposite gender, I would want them to go to a school where their gender was the least important thing about them. Going to a single sex school means that if the child decides at a later date that having explored their gender identity they wanted to revert back to their original gender, the consequences would be much more severe than in a mixed school. Reverting back would involve leaving the school, leaving friends, exam classes etc. At a mixed school, they would stay on roll, stay with their friends etc. It would be much more sensible to make everything much lower stakes and keep as many options open as possible.

thebewilderness Sat 23-Jun-18 23:29:20

Why do you think girls schools benefit girls? Do boys schools benefit boys?

Studies show that single sex education is better for girls while mixed sex education advantages boys.

thebewilderness Sat 23-Jun-18 23:31:33

They still have not fully implemented Title IX and here it is already being used against girls.

argumentativefeminist Sat 23-Jun-18 23:32:03

@neolara I think thats actually a really good point. I wonder if the examples OP is talking about involved actually students/prospective students or were just the schools deciding that if it were ever theoretically to happen, this would be their policy. I tried to Google it but to no avail.

ErrolTheDragon Sun 24-Jun-18 00:38:12

Some studies find that single sex schools are slightly better for boys than coed, just not as marked a difference as for girls. IIRC the most advantage was to the less academic girls... it's a while since I've looked at that data so not 100% sure on that.

Snappity Sun 24-Jun-18 00:49:50

"I think it's an odd decision for the parents to send a trans child to a single sex (single gender?) school. If any of my dcs decided they identified as the opposite gender, I would want them to go to a school where their gender was the least important thing about them. Going to a single sex school means that if the child decides at a later date that having explored their gender identity they wanted to revert back to their original gender, the consequences would be much more severe than in a mixed school. Reverting back would involve leaving the school, leaving friends, exam classes etc. At a mixed school, they would stay on roll, stay with their friends etc. It would be much more sensible to make everything much lower stakes and keep as many options open as possible."

While I think the schools are right in how they are handling this, I agree very much with @Neolara that a mixed school will usually be in the child's best interests - all other things about the schools being equal.

shouldwestayorshouldwego Sun 24-Jun-18 05:43:04

I think it's an odd decision for the parents to send a trans child to a single sex (single gender?) school.

To be fair when they make the choice at age 10 in this country (or even birth/preschool for independent schools) the child might not be expressing a wish to change gender. The school might be more suitable in other ways - e.g. a grammar school when secondary modern schools are the only mixed alternatives. In my limited experience too a girls school (and from reports a boys school), let the girl be the girl they want to be. They can concentrate on sciences because the teachers are often female and there isn't an unconscious bias that the boys might be better. There is pride in the girls football team because it is the only football team. There isn't the need to wear make up and impress the boys. There are 30 girls per class so if you are a 'tomboy' then you might find a few other 'tomboys' in your class. They tend to have a (not so subtle) feminist perspective- frequently being encouraged to have a top career, sexist views from men are identified and openly challenged which would be harder to do in a mixed setting. I am not saying this applies to every girls school, these are grammar schools. Certainly though girls have to take traditionally boys roles - even in productions etc. it will be an all female cast.

From reports at boys school it is similar, it must be a boy who comes top in English and arts. No need to impress the girls. There are the usual Jocks but there will also be a substantial number not playing football. A boy willing to wear dresses in the school play will get praise and applause rather than questions being asked about whether the part should have gone to a girl. They can be the sort of boy they want to be.

I agree I would not apply to a single sex school if my child was already transgender through concern that they might find it harder to blend but if they were just on the more masculine side of being a girl or more feminine side of being a boy there are benefits.

It would be interesting research to consider whether there are different rates of transitioning by school type once pre secondary selection inclination (i.e. parents of girls with more 'boys' interests selecting a mixed school) is taken into account. Or it may just delay that decision or make it harder to transition for the child.

ErrolTheDragon Sun 24-Jun-18 07:40:34

Should - your observations tally with my experience. DDs pals at her girls' school were in various ways geekish and some were GNC 'presentation'-wise ... but afaik happy to be girls/young women.

* parents of girls with more 'boys' interests selecting a mixed school* - honestly those are the ones who would probably particularly benefit from single sex. Obviously, 'boys interests' is mere limiting stereotype, nothing to do with trans. For any kids starting to exhibit genuine dysphoria, neolara is right.

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