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Gender Identity is an oxymoron

(171 Posts)
CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:02:18

Maybe someone here can explain this to me.

Gender is the name given to the social roles and practises enforced due to sex class

That’s what the word has always meant, it was first coined by some dude called John in the middle of the last century and has always meant this.

Identity is an innate sense of self, personality if you will.

So the two cannot go together, you cannot adjust the social scripting enforced due to your sex class with personality, that’s why it’s enforced. Otherwise it’s not gender.

Obviously feminism has always promoted identity over gender, because how we see ourselves and how we project ourselves should be more important than how society scripts us due to sex class, but that is abolition of gender.

I don’t understand the term ‘gender identity’ I don’t understand why, when people use it, they’re unable to give this alternative definition of either gender or identity that makes those words go together.

An arbitrary understanding of sociology shows that the words are opposite. One is how you see yourself, the other how society scripts you.

I believe Gender Identity is double speak, like Male woman or girl penis.

Dragoncake Sun 17-Jun-18 23:03:51

Excellent point.

CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:05:04

Whenever someone uses it I automatically ask them to define the two terms and then explain how in a million years they can go together

flowersonthepiano Sun 17-Jun-18 23:09:40

I believe the concept of gender identity arose from one or two cases of intersex people who were operated on soon after they were born to 'correct' their genitals, i.e., but who grew up believing they should have been the opposite sex to that they were 'assigned', which is also where 'sex assigned at birth'.

BarrackerBarmer Sun 17-Jun-18 23:10:40

Exactly right.

Gender = group (literally from the root genus I believe)
Identity = individual

You cannot as an individual know and match the feelings of a group of others.
None of us know each others minds, other than by communicating specifics and finding common ground.

Gender ideologists will proclaim 'I individually have a very deep sense of self as X' and then turn to me and say 'you too. We are the same'.

They want to claim their own individuality of feelings but assign mine to me so that we apparently match. Along with several billion other women.

It's all balderdash.

flowersonthepiano Sun 17-Jun-18 23:10:47

...comes from (bloody typos this evening!)

Picassospaintbrush Sun 17-Jun-18 23:10:53

It is a word salad psuedo "ology" developed by cross dressing fetishists in the US to enable the demobilisation of legal sex, and export this globally. Female gender allows men to be "women" whenever they want and engage in fetish behaviours in plain sight.

Gender Identity politics are completely fake. They are attempting to exploit the real experience transsexuals to drive this fetishists agenda.

It's working. Or it was.

CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:13:13

The intersex argument is a red herring. I did my thesis on gender and sport, rather than intersex but obviously covered it a lot.

People are either Male or female intersex. These cases of ambiguity are incredibly small.

CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:16:57

I blame Foucault mostly

And that J woman whose name escapes me right this second. The ‘it’s only a mountain because I’m looking at it’
Brigade.

The whole notion of ‘stepping into’ your social role is the worst example of privileged white feminism imaginable.

flowersonthepiano Sun 17-Jun-18 23:20:57

Cantakerous Yes, but I think the case (is there more than one) that is cited is a male intersex person who's penis was removed and raised as a girl, but grew up to insist he was a boy. I've heard it cited a few times and not refuted.

I still don't believe everyone has a gender identity, but I've started to wonder whether maybe males are more likely to than females. Difficult to test I imagine, given the influence of social conditioning.

Picassospaintbrush Sun 17-Jun-18 23:21:16

Gawd. Not the PWF bollocks. I'm off.

CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:27:15

flowers

I think men can ‘believe’ they have the identity of a female because they have such minimal issues with puberty. Women have periods, obvious secondary sexual characteristics, early sexualisation due to this etc. Men really just have the worry of an inconvinent erection.

Women’s identities are understandably much rooted in their biology, which affects how they’re treated, how they feel and how they behave.
I’m not sure men have to deal with that so can glibly announce they ‘feel like’ women simply because they don’t ‘feel like’ men.

CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:27:35

Picasso what is PWF?

Picassospaintbrush Sun 17-Jun-18 23:29:11

What did you say that fits the acronym?

CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:32:11

Ohhh I see.

I’m not sure why you’ve taken such offence to that. Clearly the only people who can choose the role they have in life are those who are exceptionally privileged

Julie (I want to say Bindel but it’s not her she’s rad) labels herself as a feminist without being able to identify her own privilege.

There’s lots to discuss here, Please don’t leave because you don’t feel you can discuss that.

LightofaSilveryMoon Sun 17-Jun-18 23:38:25

So, I have a half-bag of potatoes I need to use. Any suggestions?

Picassospaintbrush Sun 17-Jun-18 23:39:33

Aargh. Not every "takes offence". They can just get bored with rattled off stereotyping like "PWF" and stop listening.

I have yet to meet anyone that writes "identifying their own privilege" that can speak interestingly without these cliches.

I find that language tedious and stultifying.

CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:45:23

Are you writing about yourself in the third person and attempting an enormous derail picasso

Erm, okay.

I’m quite capable of speaking on a number of topics thanks. If you’re bored please feel free not to engage.

CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:47:32

FWIW i fail to see how anyone who has sfudied the trials and tribulations of women around the world can believe it is possible to ‘step into’ ones role in society. Which is the basis for gender politics.

The idea that you choose your social scripting is a new one and completely devoid of understanding of the plight of women and girls. Particularly those in correspondingly oppressive socio-economic groups.

LightofaSilveryMoon Sun 17-Jun-18 23:51:28

Oh, do fuck off with your game-playing!, Cantank!

CantankerousCamel Sun 17-Jun-18 23:54:15

‘Game playing’?

Picassospaintbrush Mon 18-Jun-18 00:00:09

Cantank

You sound like you have come to show of your eminent learned gender studies. You will get handed your arse here I'm afraid. We are a tad more down to earth on this board. But no less intelligent.

Maybe drop the uni speak and say what you mean?

spontaneousgiventime Mon 18-Jun-18 00:35:29

I didn't do gender studies I live it. I don't like being looked down on and any one who thinks they are going to can fuck right off!

CantankerousCamel Mon 18-Jun-18 00:49:03

Ive not come to look down on anyone, I’ve come to discuss the term ‘gender identity’ and how it fundamentally doesn’t work as a saying.

I also never studied ‘gender studies’

I apologise for going to uni(!)

spontaneousgiventime Mon 18-Jun-18 00:58:50

Why would you apologise for going to Uni? All my kids did and I'm proud of them all.

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