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Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

(331 Posts)
Bloodmagic Thu 24-May-18 11:01:06

Genuine question and I hope some of you will answer.

From my perspective, Gender Critical people (you would call us TERFs) want to accept you exactly as you are. Your sex (which you cannot change) and you personality, your fashion, mannerisms etc etc are all perfectly fine to us. We accept you as you are. We accept Transwomen as feminine men because that is exactly what you are. We accept Transmen as masculine women because that is what you are. We don't think there's anything shameful or degrading about that. Quite the opposite, we think it's pretty great. I think that men who identify as transwomen as a group should have: safety, freedom, political representation, political speech, suitable facilities (bathrooms, changerooms), inclusion in sports (co-ed, on teams of your own sex, or trans teams), free expression, happiness, the right to be around people like you and share experiences with them, organize with them, etc.

I don't think that has to come at the expense of the same rights for women.

Why is that such a terrible thing, in your eyes?

They only thing we won't do is lie for you, or prioritize your needs over our own.

How does it hurt you that we accept you exactly as we see you?

On the other hand, a lot of the people who claim to be trans supportive will not accept you as you are. Lily Madigan would not have been appointed to labor as a feminine man. They would not have accepted him as he is. They hate feminine men so much they demand that you hate yourselves and deny your reality before they will even let you be used as pawns in the Game of Patriarchy. Your self loathing is the only part of you that they value. It's the only part that I don't.

How many of your trans allies and supporters would still stand by you if you came out as a man who aspires to be as feminine as possible and understands that makes him no less a man and no less worthy than anyone else? They might not, but we would.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

averylongtimeasspartacus Thu 24-May-18 11:10:48

I don't know if you are going to get a sensible answer to this question, although I would agree with what you have written.
So many TRAs seem to hate women and use the "trans agenda" to punish women just for being women and want us to stfu, to get back in our box and stay there.
I know "not all transwomen are like that" but I would like to hear their perspective on your questions - other than the mantra of "transwomen are women" ad infinitum.

HardcoreLadyType Thu 24-May-18 11:14:31

I absolutely agree with what you have posted, and am interested to see any genuine responses.

MyAuntyBadger Thu 24-May-18 11:30:36

The transwomen I've seen on these threads would agree with you I think.

MyAuntyBadger Thu 24-May-18 11:31:28

Threads on FWR I mean, sorry.

HotRocker Thu 24-May-18 11:40:56

I doubt anybody would give a sincere answer because to engage with the question they’d have to allow for the possibility that transwomen aren’t women, and transmen aren’t men. It would also involve the acknowledgement that your real motivation might not actually be routed in hate, and the anti-terf campaign does not allow for that. To sincerely and thoughtfully engage with your question is not allowed because it would open up the platform for debate, and debate can make people look bad and creates opportunity for people to formulate their own opinions, and anything other than strict adherence to the trans-ideology dogma is not permitted.
Good luck though. I’d suggest posting this on a trans-forum but I can fully understand why you might not want to do that.

TufVoyaging Thu 24-May-18 11:44:50

I agree with all that too Blood Magic.

HotRocker Thu 24-May-18 11:45:52

Just to reiterate, I do not believe that all transpeople are like that. I made the assumption that your question was aimed at those who are. If my assumption was incorrect I apologise and will be happy to stand corrected.

ElfrideSwancourt Thu 24-May-18 11:49:23

Really well written @Bloodmagic I agree with you completely and would be very interested in a TRA/trans ally answer.

NatLuc Thu 24-May-18 12:27:14

I think that the problem comes down to perspective and the importance of language (from both sides of the fence).

Many (all?) Gender Critical people see transwomen as men and transmen as women. Male or Female I can accept, because as you stated - sex cannot be changed, but whilst GC proponents use male/female as synonymous with man/woman respectively, it acts as a language barrier when in open discourse with pro-trans people who do distinguish between them (I am saying pro-trans to be distinct from TRAs).

But to call me 'a feminine man', many find deeply insulting (not in this instance, just putting in to words the feeling it evokes) and at odds with some part of me that I cannot put in to words (the same way that what is is to be a woman cannot be universally explained - not going down this road lol..).

It is not fashion choices or mannerisms that make me feel I am a woman, it is that something in my head, my entire life has been uncomfortable with the packaging it was put in. Abolishing gender stereotypes and living in a genderless utopia would not stop the dysphoria. It might 'ease' the pressure of having to conform, but that is all.

I wore Pandora jewellery and women's necklaces and painted my nails (even for work) even as the 'straight man in a long term relationship' that the world perceived me to be, after I came out people said 'it makes sense' but - people just thought I was extremely comfortable with my identity because after all, nail polish is just paint and a bracelet/necklace is just a piece of metal, who cares. Screw stereotypes right? People accepted me as a nail polishing, women's jewellery wearing man and equally (with the exception of my parents) they have accepted me as a transwoman.

I would also like to say that I think the death threats and threats of violence that people seem to get when it comes to trans rights are unacceptable. TRAs are doing people like me a disservice. They are poisoning the public against trans people instead of trying to foster a climate of understanding.

I am not trying to say that all trans people are cuddly and innocent (just as not all gender conforming people are hostile to trans people) but there is definitely a clash of beliefs that is fueling a fire that is now out of control. As well as silly legal policy which has exacerbated the problem.

I know I have not answered everything on your post.. but I did not want my reply to get boringly long which it probably already is, anecdotes and all. I hope I have at least kept my comment sensible.

Baroquehavoc Thu 24-May-18 12:33:52

"The transwomen I've seen on these threads would agree with you I think."

I don't see that. Almost everyone wants to redefine the words women and girls and abolish female only spaces.

AngryAttackKittens Thu 24-May-18 12:34:37

I see it exactly the way you do, Bloodmagic. More than happy to accept feminine men and masculine women, what I can't accept is that someone else's internal sense of "gender", a thing I don't experience at all, should override the evidence of my own senses that's telling me that they are the sex they were born as and always will be.

spontaneousgiventime Thu 24-May-18 12:48:07

AngryAttackKittens Exactly my view. Born a wo/man die a wo/man. Do what you like to your body, take as many hormones as you like but you can't change your chromosomes.

daimbars Thu 24-May-18 18:05:50

OP I'm pretty sure most trans people agree with you. You don't get GC feminists in places like Brighton as toilets / swimming pools etc are generally gender neutral and set up for trans people to peacefully exist alongside everyone else. There's therefore no need for anyone to be 'critical' of another person's gender as it doesn't impact them in any way. Hopefully the rest of the country will follow suit and all this GC nonsense will blow over.

Hyppolyta Thu 24-May-18 18:14:25

Im sure theres GC people in Brighton, but no we dont need this gender critical nonsense to blow over.

We need gemdered stereotypes to blow over.

We need the idea that "girls can be made to share with grown men" nonsense to blow over.

We need the nonsemse about being able to change sex to blow over.

We need the silly idea "woman is just a feeling" to blow over, and most importantly we need the silencing of women to blow over.

TERFragetteCity Thu 24-May-18 18:17:39

And all this GC nonsense will blow over.

You mean just stop caring about women and girls? Right.

OldCrone Thu 24-May-18 18:20:23

There's therefore no need for anyone to be 'critical' of another person's gender as it doesn't impact them in any way.

You can claim to have any 'gender' you want, but don't claim that you can change sex. Men claiming to be women does impact on women.

daimbars Thu 24-May-18 18:39:39

* You can claim to have any 'gender' you want, but don't claim that you can change sex*

That would mean repealing the current GRA which legally recognises trans women as women and trans men as men if they have a GRC. That goes a bit further than being 'gender critical' that is wanting to remove existing rights.

BlackForestCake Thu 24-May-18 18:44:58

Good. It was a stupid thing to put into law in the first place, since some people have subsequently shown themselves incapable of distinguishing between a legal fiction and reality.

daimbars Thu 24-May-18 18:52:45

Wanting to remove the legal right to change gender would be like saying to gay people 'we're fine with your relationships but we want to take away civil partnerships and gay marriage'

You can see why some trans people are worried and upset by GC feminists.

TERFragetteCity Thu 24-May-18 19:19:24

Wanting to remove the legal right to change gender would be like saying to gay people 'we're fine with your relationships but we want to take away civil partnerships and gay marriage'

It is nothing of the sort. As people can be gay but people cannot change sex. Huge difference.

Hyppolyta Thu 24-May-18 19:22:53

People should be free to change gender as frequently as they want.

The problem arises when thats confused with changing sex

Men can have as many differing genders as they want. Thats fine. What isnt fine is giving males access to female spaces or AWS, or any other areas that are designed for women by sex, not gender.

Baroquehavoc Thu 24-May-18 19:28:31

TIM have come on here claiming to have GRC, but say they never need to use it. Other TIM have claim they don't need a GRC because they can use female spaces regardless. I've been told that despite having a GRC, TIM can be excluded from female services. Having a GRC doesn't make a non passing transperson pass, therefore, presumably doesn't stop them recieving transphobic abuse.

Makes me wonder if a GRC is fit for purpose.

daimbars Thu 24-May-18 19:31:17

TERFragetteCity but people can legally change sex just as gay people can now legally marry.

There was plenty of opposition to gay marriage. Many Christians stated two men or two women 'cannot' marry just like you have stated people 'cannot' change sex.

This is why the term LGBT is around - different but similar groups of people all wanting equality.

TERFragetteCity Thu 24-May-18 19:34:17

But men can marry as marriage is a social construct.

Nobody can change sex it is a biological impossibility.

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