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Trans women

(412 Posts)
Jamiem80 Sat 19-May-18 01:07:25

Probably going to get shot down massively here but a simple question clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women, but nothing about women becoming men. Do you also frown upon this or is it ok and for what reason?

tabulahrasa Sat 19-May-18 01:19:04

Biological women self ID-ing as men won’t create any loopholes that might put people in danger, they’re not going to disadvantage anyone in sports or any other sex based separation, they’re not asking to get into spaces where people more physically vulnerable than them are...

There may well be issues about them being in men only spaces, but if it bothers men they need to be the ones thinking about it.

AssassinatedBeauty Sat 19-May-18 01:23:11

"a simple question clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women, " - no there isn't.

"Do you also frown upon this or is it ok and for what reason?" - people don't frown on people being transgender.

thebewilderness Sat 19-May-18 01:27:33

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

Datun Sat 19-May-18 01:30:16

It's not about trans people in isolation. It's about removing sex based rights and protections for women.

Transmen don't impact that (unless they are activists for transwomen).

Only transwomen are a threat to women's sex based protection. Because it ignores the inherent power dynamic between men and women.

Men won't feel threatened if a woman is sent to their prison or wants to compete against them in men's sports, etc. It's only a problem the other way round.

ToeToToe Sat 19-May-18 01:35:32

You won't be shot down, necessarily, for asking such a question. But you will hear some robust, reasoned responses.

As you already have received.

I don't believe either sex can change to the opposite sex - but women's spaces are the ones being encroached upon - by men identifying as women - so that is what I predominantly concern myself with. For myself, but mostly for my 10yr old daughter. Who shouldn't see an adult penis in changing rooms.

VaggieMight Sat 19-May-18 01:38:12

Hate? Men can't become women. That's not hate, it's fact.

The reason trans men aren't talked about is because they pose no challenging issues for men or women.

AllyMcBeagle Sat 19-May-18 01:39:32

Firstly, I wouldn't say people on here hate transwomen - it is more that there is concern about ramifications of various legal changes and how these impact on women's rights, particularly as the Government want to remove the process that is currently in place which means that transpeople require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and 2 years living as if they were the opposite sex/gender before they can legally change their sex/gender. Instead anyone will just be able to complete a form ('self ID').

I do worry about the increasing numbers of transmen and worry that it is something that I could have got sucked into as a non-confirming teen and later regretted.

But otherwise the issues are not really the same. With transwomen being allowed access to women-only spaces we have to worry about what happens if men pose as trans to enter. It's not really a problem with genuine transwomen, but it can be hard to distinguish transwomen from men with nefarious purposes. This is already happening - eg the predator who posed as trans to abuse women at refuges in Canada. This is particularly a concern if self ID comes in as then any man can legally become a woman without making any changes (see Ibi-Pippi Hedegaard in Denmark where self ID has been brought in) and have a legal right to enter eg women's toilets. Men commit 98% of sexual assaults so it is obvious why women want segregated spaces for eg communal changing. Men fundamentally don't see women as a threat so don't have the same need for protected segregated spaces.

Also female sports are an issue. Transmen have no advantage over men, but transwomen have a clear advantage in many sports over women. Recent cases like Laurel Hubbard suggest that women's sports are in danger of becoming meaningless.

There are other issues but those are two of the major ones.

thebewilderness Sat 19-May-18 01:39:40

This is the Feminism and Women's Rights section of MN so what we focus on is Feminism and Women's Rights.

This is viewed as an act of hatred by misogynists, the MRAs and transgender male advocates.

Jamiem80 Sat 19-May-18 01:42:11

ToeToToe do you think then that it would be ok for a 10 year old boy to be seeing a vagina? Sorry to pick on you but you so far have had the most balanced response

Jamiem80 Sat 19-May-18 01:49:33

While I do understand that transwomen potentially pose more threat surely if you ignore transmen and just allow them to be men then the whole gender argument against transwomen is that much weaker.

BettyFloop Sat 19-May-18 01:50:55

do you think then that it would be ok for a 10 year old boy to be seeing a vagina?

Where do you think this would be likely to happen in a sex segregated public place?

ToeToToe Sat 19-May-18 01:51:17

As the mother of 2 boys who have both been 10 yrs old - I would say no, probably not. But it's not the same. The direction of sexual assault is 97-98% male to female. That's biological male, not gender identity.

But you're not really talking about a "vagina" are you? You're presumably talking about a full frontal naked woman or "trans man" - because an actual vagina is not visible, generally, when changing. Not in the same way as a penis is. Unless contortions are involved.

Anyway, no - sex segregated changing is what I would be in favour of.

ToeToToe Sat 19-May-18 01:57:24

What you need to understand is that women rarely commit crime with their vagina.

Whereas a penis - is hugely involved in sexual crime. There is a whole genre of crime categorised by the male penis - and it is male. There is no other type of penis. It is called rape. 1 in 4 women will be affected by it.

AllyMcBeagle Sat 19-May-18 02:01:49

While I do understand that transwomen potentially pose more threat surely if you ignore transmen and just allow them to be men then the whole gender argument against transwomen is that much weaker.

But we're not campaigning against trans people. We just want to uphold women's rights to eg segregated spaces, segregated sports etc. for the protection and benefit of women. Some of us believe that the best option is to have a third unisex space for transwomen and anyone else who wants to use it whilst retaining separate spaces for women.

If men have an issue with transmen or women posing a transmen in their spaces/sports etc., then they are free to argue their case. But it's not for feminists to argue this for them.

thebewilderness Sat 19-May-18 02:08:02

Once you take the position that women's right to privacy and dignity is anti trans there is nothing more to discuss. Suffragists were not anti men, though the men say so, and Feminists are not anti men or anti trans. We are pro women's rights.

ToeToToe Sat 19-May-18 02:09:59

No, we're not campaigning against being trans. Anyone can be trans - go for it. I'd prefer it if legal safeguarding prevented children from being medicalised - because, well reasons. Being put on a medicalised pathway, possible infertility.

But we are campaigning for sex segregated spaces - spaces - changing rooms, toilets, hospital wards, rape crisis centres - that will be safe for our daughters and granddaughters. Penises are not female, full stop.

Picassospaintbrush Sat 19-May-18 02:37:33

We have now reached the point where scanning a thread is a piece of sublime artistry:

a BettyFloop type non sequitur,

creates a pause,

followed by thebewilderness voice of sanity.

This board has become poetry in motion.

rosylea Sat 19-May-18 03:51:57

I tend to think that people who can't see the risks of transwomen being in mixes spaces compared to transmen in mixed spaces, must be thick. People who can't see the unfairness, cheating aspect of transwomen competing in sports against women compared to transmen competing against men, again thick.

ICJump Sat 19-May-18 04:02:21

I disagree that female- man trans don’t create issues for woman. A state government in Australia is about to inact law that will require al information on abortion to refer to pregnant people rather than woman. Look at what’s happen to LLL they now talk about breastfeeding people. If we woman can’t name reproductive act as part of discrimination discussion we will lose our rights

Emerencealwayshopeful Sat 19-May-18 05:53:16

There isn’t hate.

There is valid concern that female biology and experience is being erased from the public sphere in the name of inclusivity - so that we have terms like menstruators, chest-feeding, pregnant people and parental leave (which is wonderful except when the policies around it ignore the physical reality of pregnancy, birth and recovery)

And strong feelings about the loss of hard won and much needed accomodations, supports etc which are disappearing because some males demand that their belief entitles them to access spaces put aside for the 50% of the population who are female.

Your question about a ten year old seeing naked bodies of opposite sexed people in shared changing facility is interesting - because it presupposes that there are the same concerns. But penises are used to hurt females at an extraordinary rate. Female genitalia in a Male space does not pose the same risks.

Beyond the concerns about language and safety there is also a valid distress at the number of children and young people who are being pushed into a medical conveyer belt and who are being lied to about what science can and can’t achieve. Cutting off healthy body parts, deliberately causing infertility, destroying the possibility of future sexual pleasure - this is happening now.

There are many serious discussions that need to happen desperately and which get shut down.

And much research is neeeded.

And none of this is driven by hatred towards individuals or groups of people.

merrymouse Sat 19-May-18 06:21:02

if you ignore transmen and just allow them to be men then the whole gender argument against transwomen is that much weaker.

Not really - it’s just less practically relevant.

People also believe that homeopathy is an effective medical treatment and that sex outside marriage is wrong. I might disagree with those beliefs but for the most part it’s possible to ignore them because they don’t impact much on other people.

merrymouse Sat 19-May-18 06:26:33

I also don’t think it’s true to say that transmen are ignored. There is huge concern that GNC girls are being encouraged to believe that they need to take hormones and have surgery to belong.

SeahorsesAREhorses Sat 19-May-18 06:43:18

I have to say I'm concerned that there is no room for masculine girls and they are self declaring as boys, or being repeatedly told they are trans by their peers. That isn't frowning, that's worry, the sort that twists your gut and makes you feel sick.

Men with low testosterone in the states are threatening law suits due to the side effects of the testosterone they were treated with. Where will girls be who take T in ten years time?

Cwenthryth Sat 19-May-18 06:49:12

To answer your various points OP-

clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women not around here there isn’t. No hate. A strong desire to defend the rights and safety of women and girls, yes. No hate. In fact many gender critical transwomen are members here, support ‘our’ points of view, write letters and articles to national newspapers and participate in WPUK events and similar. We are not against transwomen. We are for the rights & safety of women and girls.

nothing about women becoming men. Do you also frown upon this or is it ok and for what reason? again, you’re starting from false assumptions, it’s not about frowning on anyone. There are quite a few posts and threads discussing concerns around transmen, specifically about teenage girls identifying as transgender, the high rate of co-morbidity of factors like autism and sexual abuse and the fact that a strict gender-affirmative model of counselling and support fails to address these; the posited phenomenon of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria - very similar to the well recognised phenomenon of ‘outbreaks’ of anorexia, self harming etc we see in teenage girls, and the overall well-being of transmen - infertility, potential for lifelong health problems caused by hormonal treatment - is a distinct feminist concern. Many of us are acutely aware that if we were X decades younger, we would easily have been swayed by transgender ideology and have been vulnerable to taking life changing decisions that could have left us physically scarred and infertile, when in fact we were simply struggling with puberty and how the world treats women.

surely if you ignore transmen and just allow them to be men then the whole gender argument against transwomen is that much weaker again you’re coming at this from a false position on multiple fronts - firstly, generally feminists are not ignoring transmen (TRAs often seem to, shouting about transwomen rather than transgender people, though) - secondly it’s not about disallowing anyone to ‘be’ anything (if you mean dress, present, identify how they feel works best for them, in fact the opposite - break down those gender stereotype walls!), nor is this a ‘gender argument against transwomen’ - see my answer to your first question. So honestly I don’t know how to answer this point as it makes so many incorrect assumptions. But as others have already explained, one of the main concerns of feminists about transgender ideology is the threat to the rights and safety of women and girls, specifically the provision of sex-segregated female-only spaces, posed by gender self-identification of males. Clearly, transmen do not pose this threat to women.

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