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Our problem is MRAs, not trans people.

(51 Posts)
LightofaSilveryMoon Tue 24-Apr-18 01:47:34

Seeing the recent Bristol footage, the fascism of masked blokes telling women they can go no further to a legitimate meeting organised by women.

We're just dealing with MRAs again, really, aren't we? Men's Rights Activists (MRA) pushing the Transgender cause, for their own Men's Rights ends. Trans identity being used cynically. To deprive women of their identity and rights

I have a problem with violent, pompous, pathetically authoritarian men who mask their faces, and who seek to intimidate women.

Battleax Tue 24-Apr-18 01:56:58

Our problem is MRAs and TRAs, but not trans people in general.

SonicVersusGynaephobia Tue 24-Apr-18 02:04:22

I think the majority of TRAs are MRAs.

Many transpeople are TRAs/MRAs.

Unfortunately, the transpeople who aren't MRAs, women don't mind sharing many spaces with (as a courtesy) but they are the ones who will ultimately lose out in this whole debacle. It's very unfair.

MadBadDaddy Tue 24-Apr-18 03:16:36

If MRAs weren't organising Transpeople, I doubt that most Transpeople would organise themselves. Numbers, for one thing. Not enough interest or willingness (not all are out) to stage much more than the occasional sit-in.

MadBadDaddy Tue 24-Apr-18 03:38:51

I could live with the threat level of a sit-in.

Mumsnut Tue 24-Apr-18 06:34:18

#peak mra

Mumsnut Tue 24-Apr-18 06:40:51

#peak tra

Ardant Tue 24-Apr-18 07:10:29

Well yes of course. No one has ever said that transpeople are the problem here have they?

ScarletBegonias Tue 24-Apr-18 07:23:52

I got the impression that the "masked blokes" were cis allies rather than full-blown MRAs.

But whoever they were, I didn't much care for them.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain Tue 24-Apr-18 07:28:20

Middle-class white males seeking to cement their hegemony over the rest of us by coopting our stories and throwing their weight about.

How they id is almost beside the point.

ChattyLion Tue 24-Apr-18 08:09:45

Yes and no. I absolutely agree that we are dealing with bullying, intimidating masked (mostly male but a few female) men’s rights activists who get off on their own power to stop (or try to stop) free movement, free speech, and free assembly of women by being threatening, and being physically violent if they get the chance to be. (like at Speakers Corner the TRA who punched a woman to the ground for the temerity to be filming them when they looked very likely to get violent- the filming woman was quite right- they did get violent and luckily other filming women got the evidence that proved the attack . ) that went to court and now TRAs online encourage each other to wear masks and to obscure their identities (oh..the irony!!) so they can ‘fuck up TERFs’ with apparent impunity. it’s horrifying and these authoritarian violent tactics are those of male supremacists from across the centuries. Who knows whether masked male bodies and female bodied extremists (who seek to silence and intimidate peaceful gender critical women) identify as trans or cis- their actions are appalling.

But nobody on here has said that trans people are the problem, on the contrary there is a lot of concern on here about how this extremist dogma and violent behaviour is going to impact very badly on the lives of trans people just peacefully living their lives.
These violent, woman hating extremist trans activists are being actively disowned on here by trans people posting that the thugs don’t represent, speak (or punch!) women for them.

Most of the gender critical women posters on here are really worried about the effect on women, children and on trans people of legalsing gender self ID because together we are all going to be the victims of all this.

Most of us posting here are very worried for our kids and other people’s kids who are at risk of not being able to be gender non conforming or gay or lesbian without the risk of having a TRA-flavoured trans label ‘affirmingly’ thrust upon them and being encouraged to think they need to ‘change sex’ and at young ages be encouraged to go down the route of hormones, breast binding and surgeries with all kinds of physical risks and side effects which are not reversible.

Many women on here can absolutely relate to the feeling of the awful gender expectations trap falling around them, in childhood and especially around puberty, and in your teenage tears, it is shit and that’s a totally understandable feeling to resist. Doesn’t necessarily mean that the answer for the majority is going to be found in extremist TRA dogma, hormones and drugs and certainly not as a route to take at a young age.

Most of us posting on here sound like we to break down gender stereotypes so all people can be freer (especially women, who are usually hurt and killed because gender is weaponised against their sex).

Gender is bullshit, but biological sex is real and we all need to deal with reality in a practical way living our personal lives and arguing about openly about political theories and legal attempts which would seek to obscure this. Male supremacists have a shiny new vanguard with which to attack women by co-opting the trans cause and appropriating the history of other civil rights struggles and it’s very scary to see it happening.

ChattyLion Tue 24-Apr-18 08:12:11

Sorry lack of punctuation but currently dealing with reality of kids breakfast grin

MoistCantaloupe Tue 24-Apr-18 08:12:56

Why would transpeople in general, be the problem? TRA/MRA have always been the source of hostility.

OrchidInTheSun Tue 24-Apr-18 08:15:56

According to the sistersuncut page, the people in the stairwell were cis women and trans people

LangCleg Tue 24-Apr-18 08:28:12

It's just not as simple as saying some MRAs have infiltrated the TRA movement and if only they hadn't there wouldn't be a problem. MRA infiltration is one problem among many and the big picture is complicated. I personally spend a lot of time focusing on the ideology of social constructionism - this applies more widely and in more areas than transactivism, but it's where the anti-woman biological sex is a social construct rubbish comes from.

I think the easiest way for feminists to wade through the treacle of complexities is simply to ask what about women and girls for every topic and issue that comes up. Ignore the swirl of noise and just ask yourself is this good for women and girls - if it isn't, don't support it.

Branleuse Tue 24-Apr-18 08:29:18

I agree, and theres a fair amount of TRAs that feel the same way about women as the "incel" community do

MadBadDaddy Tue 24-Apr-18 10:00:36

If TRA-ing had only ever consisted solely of non-violent methods and no-one was considering anything like Self-ID, transpeople wouldn't be a big problem to Feminists, no, but they would attract a few opinions.

xxmarksthespot Tue 24-Apr-18 10:42:58

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MacaroonMama Tue 24-Apr-18 10:46:58

Chattylion love your post.

xxmarks the transwomen I have met do not believe themselves to have changed sex, but they present themselves a certain way to make their lives bearable. They would describe themselves as trans though, and I do feel that word used by them is fine, absolutely fine. It is when it is appropriated by the TRAs/MRAs that it becomes altogether more frightening.

LaSqrrl Tue 24-Apr-18 10:58:25

If you cannot tell the difference between MRA and TRA tactics, that is probably because they are indeed... identical.

If non-TRA trans want to say "not in my name", then by all means - but thus far, a tiny minority. I judge them by their majority actions.

womanformallyknownaswoman Tue 24-Apr-18 11:04:06

It's impossible to change sex. People can use hormones and surgery to become a semblance of the other sex - but that is what it is - a semblance. The whole Transgender movement is a marketing construction to create an income stream for Big Pharm and the Futures Market, who have consumerised normal developmental distress for their own benefit. The distressed are being duped that their pain is down to being in the wrong body.

Where MRAs and TRAs run hand in hand is in their coercion and trashing of women and children for their use. That's how you know their thinking is disordered plus that whatever they are saying is just a cover for their male entitlement and aggression. We're supposed to cave into their whims and delusions. And guess what happens when they receive a decline? They rage, trash, stalk, harass, threaten plus verbally and physically assault women and children - they have that in common, as all abusers.

Live and let live is my motto but not at my expense or other women nor that of children - mine or anyone else's.

MadBadDaddy Tue 24-Apr-18 11:14:50

@xxmarksthespot "The basic concept of being "trans" is a problem." is the debate that resumes the morning after the last TRA has given up and gone home, and Self-ID is no more than a receding memory.

BarrackerBarmer Tue 24-Apr-18 11:19:44

My problem is any man who calls himself a woman and expects society to validate that belief in any way.
And any person who facilitates that such a demand upon society be actualised.

I have no problem with trans people who accept their actual sex and do not impose themselves on the opposite sex through use of their spaces and quotas or changes to documents, legal recognitions, data capture in the wrong sex category etc.

Which I think means I'm OK with cross dressers, detransitioners and those who have reached an acceptance of their sex at the end of their journey.

MadBadDaddy Tue 24-Apr-18 11:20:10

...and by 'resumes' I mean 'continues with less distraction'

highteaandcake Tue 24-Apr-18 15:37:17

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

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