A Statement on Gender from the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales

[massi71]

catholicnews.org.uk/plenary-april18-gender

I thought this might be interesting to read. As far as I can see it's the only organisation that's openly expressing reservations about the dangers of uncontrolled self ID (I could be wrong though)

[fascinated]

Thanks - interesting

[AndhowcouldIeverrefuse]

Thank you for this OP. I am an atheist but I thought some of the points they make are very interesting:

We recognise that there are people who do not accept their biological sex. We are concerned about and committed to their pastoral care. Through listening to them we seek to understand their experience more deeply and want to accompany them with compassion, emphasising that they are loved by God and valued in their inherent God-given dignity.


Indeed, the body is God’s gift. It is with and through our bodies that we make our earthly journey, with all its ambiguities, sufferings and joy. This understanding is vital for welcoming and accepting not only ourselves, and each other, but also the entire world as gifts of God.

[wherethevioletsgrow]

Yes, but remember that the Catholic Bishops will have similar views on gay people who also need pastoral support (ie conversion therapy).

My enemy's enemy is not my friend and all that....

[AndhowcouldIeverrefuse]

where the important points for me where:

Biological sex is real
Gender dysphoria exists
We are equal and have inherent worth
Any journey/ path should start with accepting reality

In a normal world all of the above would be pretty bland. In this day and age some of it is pretty controversial in some circles.

[HerFemaleness]

It needs to be emphasised that "biological sex and the socio-cultural role of sex (gender) can be distinguished but not separated.

From the statement.

The Catholic church is not a friend to women. They believe men and women have separate and distinct functions within society and never the twain shall meet. Like trans activists they believe that people have innate gender, they differ from trans activists in that TRAs believe that 'mis-matches' can happen, the Catholic church believes they can't.

[wherethevioletsgrow]

The Catholic church is not a friend to women

Precisely. Their concerns are based on something different. It's quite worrying when people start turning to the right-wing press and religious zealots. Yes, they do not support trans. They also hate gay people, sex before marriage, single parenthood- all sorts. Do not get into bed with them- they will not help you.

[wherethevioletsgrow]

We are equal and have inherent worth

That's what they say. But we can see from the abortion debate in Ireland how few fucks they genuinely give about women. We are breeding machines. As long as we stick to that and don't get too demanding, we're golden.

[newtlover]

do catholics really believe that men and women have seperate and distinct functions? or is that a cultural belief?
I like
' It is with and through our bodies that we make our earthly journey, with all its ambiguities, sufferings and joy.'
I think there is a lot of body hatred in the trans ideology- we are our bodies, if there is something about our bodies we don't like we should make peace with them, without our bodies there is no pleasure, no experience of anything, nothing.

[HopScotchy]

Whilst religion is no friend of women I'm not surprised they think sex is real. The vast majority of people do. So...

[wherethevioletsgrow]

do catholics really believe that men and women have seperate and distinct functions? or is that a cultural belief?

You can't separate the two. What catholics believe is also cultural belief in a catholic society. But yes, the whole Irish constitution is based on a belief that women belong in the home. The catholic church is misogynistic as fuck. Look at the Magdalene laundries and the way that they still deny traumatised, even raped, women abortions, all in the name of God. I would rather burn my own hair off than get into bed with them.

[JessicaJonesJacket]

If this statement is issued to every parish, it will bring the debate to a much wider audience.

[HerFemaleness]

do catholics really believe that men and women have seperate and distinct functions? or is that a cultural belief?

They don't let women in the priesthood, do they.

There are certain verses in the Bible. The hammer verses we used to call them.

1 Tim 2:12

I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

There's also Ephesians 5:22-23 which directs women to be in submission to their husbands

From this, conservative Christians like the Catholic church in England argue that it isn't a woman's place to be in leadership over man, at all at any time but especially not in a church setting. Back before feminism kicked off the church would argue that women were just a lesser type of human, inferior in role and inferior in essence. The feminist revolution changed all, it became very uncool to talk about female inferiority so instead this theology of gender evolved which stated that men and women are of equal value and worth, but the good lord has seen fit to task men and women with different roles and functions in society and different natures to go with our respective roles. God has given man the nature to lead and women the nature to submit and follow.

They use the term complementary, the article even refers to complementary. You might have read that as just a reference to human sexual dimorphism but in a Christian setting it means so much more than that, it refers to the natures of men and women and what they believe to be our respective roles in society.

[fascinated]

It’s all true in terms of what is official policy BUT the vast majority of Catholics I know live in major cognitive dissonance and dismiss the more extreme stuff. Yes, they are probably generally more conservative but some of the nicest and most cosmopolitan and thoughtful people I know are Catholics.

[Rufustheconstantreindeer]

It’s all true in terms of what is official policy BUT the vast majority of Catholics I know live in major cognitive dissonance and dismiss the more extreme stuff

Yep

Twas ever thus

[Wanderabout]

the whole Irish constitution is based on a belief that women belong in the home

Wow, is that really true? I had no idea.

There was a great Venn diagram posted a few times about the differences and similarities between TRA, feminist, and this type of religious view on sex and gender. Typically I can't remember where.

[fascinated]

Well I don’t know about some Irish women but I know plenty with University education and jobs so again.... cognitive dissonance I think!

[ChesterBelloc]

"The Catholic church is not a friend to women" ...is your opinion, HerFemaleness.

Will you provide any evidence for your statement "Back before feminism kicked off the church would argue that women were just a lesser type of human, inferior in role and inferior in essence"?

St. Catherine of Sienna (made a saint by the oh-so-misogynistic woman-despising Catholic Church) used to regularly correspond with the Pope by letter, tearing strips off him and insisting he do his job properly. Edith Stein, 20th century philosopher, made a Doctor of the Catholic Church, along with St Therese of Lisieux. Hundreds of women over hundreds of years, publicly recognised for their major contributions. Your knee-jerk bigotry is ill-informed.

[Wherethevioletsgrow]

What more evidence do you need than the manner in which women who need an abortion are treated?

[Popchyk]

I did wonder whether it would be specific about women who identify as men and want to become priests.

Nothing specific but reading the tone of the piece, I'd be saying a no from them.

Presumably if a male priest identifies as a woman at some point, that priest would also have to leave the church?

Or would it be okay because the Catholic church would insist that because his sex was male, he could stay working as a priest?

We live in interesting times.

[fascinated]

Pretty sure there is an exemption for TiW wanting to become priests, in the same way that there is one for primogeniture. This was part of the compromise in the traditional law (other aspects being of course those for women-only spaces : guess which ones Maria Miller’s report talks about abolishing...)

[ChesterBelloc]

Pop - insofar as the priestly role is based on Jesus Christ, who was definitely a man, I don't think a priest who started identifying as a woman would be able to fulfil that role any longer.

[Popchyk]

Chester, even if the church says to the priest in question: "Look, we know that you identify as a woman but we know that you are actually a man so you can carry on priesting"?

And do we know that Jesus Christ definitely wasn't transgender?

[LastGirlOnTheLeft]

I NEVER see people become as vitriolic towards other faiths as I do towards Catholics. Even the most vehemently anti-women creeds.🤔 I think it is because Catholicism is an easy target with no comeback.

And also because there is a lot of truth in what people say. 🤷‍♀️

I'm a practicing Catholic and I recognize completely the misogyny. I HATE it!! All that St Paul bollocks in the second reading about brothers, sons, men....women are invisible!! Such shite!!

BUT.....I'm a part of the Church because I love Jesus and Mary....I have a friendship/relationship with them. The Catholic Church hails Mary as the greatest ever human being. Also, my community is very special to me. I love it!! I love going to the chapel and seeing my colleagues and friends and neighbours and sharing our faith. I would never want to NOT have it!!

So knock yourselves out having a pop...chances are we CONCUR!!!😃😃 Let us just be glad SOMEONE is speaking out about this utter insanity!

[BreakWindandFire]

The Catholic Church is the enemy of women.

While it might bang on in a statement about everyone's inherent worth and equal dignity blah blah blah, it's official doctrine is that men are the head of women, that women should be subservient to men, and that women should be prevented from undertaking certain roles due to their biological inferiority. It does not believe that women have the right to control their own fertility, and believes that women should fulfill what it sees as their innate gender roles.

Citing the Catholic church to promote women's rights, is like using Hitler to endorse vegetarianism.

[BreakWindandFire]

I'm with Richard Dawkins who said that Islam and Catholicism were the two worst religions when it came to women's rights. I was brought up Catholic and like lastgirlontheleft recognise the misogyny, but I couldn't stick it. I'm glad you've come to an accommodation but I found it impossible.