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How would you describe your GC views?

(39 Posts)
facelessvongorgeous Fri 20-Apr-18 14:20:06

I'm interested in the scope and range of views on here and to solidify some of my thoughts I'd be interested in hearing in people's personal beliefs, lines in the sand, how you talk about trans people in day to day discussion.

For example, I feel the vast majority of us would like to keep sex segregated spaces but the definition of that differs slightly. In my utopia there would be no need to transition as gender would not exist, however we're past that now. Therefore I'd be accepting of transwomen with a GRC, but how would that be proved? And this is where my centrist/pragmatism collides with my desire for only sex as a descriptor.

Likewise I will use preferred pronouns until that person has given me cause not to, and will use transwomen rather than TIM. I recognise this is conceding on my firmly held beliefs but I don't feel at this point any backtracking can be done.

I also don't necessarily believe the big pharma side of things as haven't personally seen this enact with trans people I know, who struggle with waiting times. Not to say it isn't true but it's not my experience.

I'd love to hear more about where others lie in the spectrum and how they consolidate idealism with pragmatism, if only to help me clear the fog!

womanformallyknownaswoman Fri 20-Apr-18 14:33:53

It's impossible to reconcile the erasure of sex however much it's rationalised and morphed into weasley words - that's not idealism but biology and the basis of women's oppression globally.

ReluctantCamper Fri 20-Apr-18 14:38:02

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 20-Apr-18 14:43:34

Pretty much what reluctant said except, I won't use preferred pronouns, I would use they or their name.

And I'm beginning think GRCs could be abolished, it's an unhelpful legal fiction. So I don't believe people with GRCs should be legally treated as the opposite sex (although on most cases the sexws should be treated the same!) Think non gender conformity should be protected though.

Ihavenofuckstogive Fri 20-Apr-18 14:46:42

Anti self ID.
I won't misgender and dislike people who do just to make a point.

facelessvongorgeous Fri 20-Apr-18 14:54:33

I'm much more black and white privately, but publicly (including on social media) I feel uncomfortable with knowingly saying things that can cause hurt. That's not to say they should be, or are, hurtful as saying a man is a man is correct (and I'm happy to say a man is a man), however I can't untangle if that's my socialisation or how I naturally talk about anything.

In life in general I wimp out of saying things that will upset people and unfortunately TRAs have jumped on women's voices not being heard and exploited it.

Are people different in how they talk about their views online and in person? Or between friends, work colleagues and acquaintances?

LangCleg Fri 20-Apr-18 15:56:54

Mostly what ReluctantCamper said.

Not inclined to be polite about the politics of it. Much nicer IRL in social sense!

Greymisty Fri 20-Apr-18 16:08:37

I think GRC should be in place and possibly strengthened, allowing those with it to access single sex spaces.
I think transgender as an umbrella term should be rethought as it's lumping those with dysmorphia in with "my penis is female, let's punch terfs" extreme.
Use preferred pronouns.
Transwomen are transwomen and transmen are transmen and they are entitled to exist and live without harassment and be accepted by wider society.

MrPan Fri 20-Apr-18 16:16:23

Again, much as RC indicates. I have female loved ones (and a sense of justice and respect for science) and get breathless on occasion at the cis- thing.

Each time the word 'transitioning' is used I want to know exactly what they mean.

I know two transpeople. Neither of them would come close to any of the TRA behaviours.

rememberthetime Fri 20-Apr-18 16:22:31

Reluctant seems to have my views all sewn up too.

Less specifically, I would say that I am a liberal gender critical woman

I believe in live and let live - as long as your actions do not have a detrimental effective on others.
I also think that people under the age of 16 (possibly 18) are not equipped to make life changing choices of any kind without support, help and assessments.
But if some wants me to call them Ms, then fine. I'm polite and happy to accommodate - but try to remove my rights and I will fight tooth and nail.

BarrackerBarmer Fri 20-Apr-18 17:54:20

My view is that gender is no more real than Victorian ectoplasm, or creationism.
It's nothing more than an idea that some people hold, one that they are determined to press onto others.

And I think people don't often enough understand that it exists to GROUP PEOPLE into CATEGORIES based on shared traits.
It's right there in the root of the word.

Gender = group with shared traits

But people who push the concept of gender now try to make it be two opposing things at once, like a shoe they claim can fit on both feet at the same time.

If you ask them directly what it means, this is what you are told.

First they say gender is an individual, indefinable, intimately personal and subjective thing. It's different for everybody, no-one is the same. My personal, bespoke, made to measure shoe.

And then, barely drawing breath, they tell me that it encircles an entire group and excludes another; a very distinct class, a group. One that must be recognised by its single communal name.

And when you ask, if it is unique and personal to you, then why am I in this class with you? What are our shared traits that make us a class, yet exclude those others? What is it you think you see in ME that is making you pull me into this idea you have of YOU?

They answer, we cannot tell you these traits we share, but you must stay in this class with us. And we must share the same name. Or, if you are one of the very, very few, you can leave and join that class over there. But we cannot tell you what their shared traits are too. You must decide, you are us or you are them, but there are no criteria we can tell you so that you know which is which. You will feel it inside you.

And this makes no sense. And you sense there is a lie here, a truth being hidden.

And you begin to notice that when they are unguarded, they let things slip. I knew from a child that I was a ....because I liked.....I always wanted to be a .....because I felt....because I wanted...

And the picture of what they really think the shared traits of these groups are begins to take shape, and you understand why most genderbelievers don't want to answer directly. The things they liked, and felt, and wanted are all stereotypes. Expectations and rules and behaviours and fashions and feelings. And all of them attached, needlessly, to a very, very distinct group that really does have tangible shared traits. Attached to a biological SEX. And the word the genderbelievers are using to describe their gender; these wants and likes and rules and feelings, is also the word used for sex.

So you say, oh wow, I get it, I understand what you want, and you can have it! In fact, it's ALL yours, all that stuff, I never really wanted it. Take the gender stuff, and like a metaphorical 6 inch heel, hot pink, patent leather spike stiletto, go ahead and put it on your own foot, I'll be much more comfortable without it, in fact. Take the stuff, but please just detach it from my sex. Have it, but please, leave me the word for my sex, for my body, so we don't confuse the two things, SEX and GENDER, any more. The shoe is all yours, not mine and good luck to you.

And they say, No way.

They need my foot too. It has to be squashed into that shoe alongside their own foot. My sex, my body, the thing I cannot change, squashed uncomfortably into that gender shoe, with their sex, their body, and both of us under the same name. The name that used to mean my sex. And we won't talk about our sexes or our bodies any more, we'll just talk about the single shoe that both our feet are crammed into.

So that’s gender, and that’s why I hate it, and all the lies and obfuscation around it. It’s a stupid, uncomfortable shoe that everyone would do better to throw in the bin, but which has instead become the thing that I am forced to wear if I am to have words to talk about my sex. It has become the thing I always hated that I am ordered to share with people with whom I have nothing in common. It hurts, I want my foot out of it, I can run better without it.

I want to be barefoot. The way I was born.

DJLippy Fri 20-Apr-18 18:06:13

Transwomen are men.

Ereshkigal Fri 20-Apr-18 18:13:18

They are not women in any way, and our politeness and desire to be open minded and kind has been taken and used against us because so many of them despise us, like any common or garden chauvinist. Trans identified males are men. It is so liberating and refreshing to say it, and I'm not going backwards now.

Ereshkigal Fri 20-Apr-18 18:14:09

Great post Barracker.

vaginafetishist Fri 20-Apr-18 18:17:59

Barracker, you are extraordinary.

OvaHere Fri 20-Apr-18 18:28:31

Adding to what others have said if we continue having a demographic of legally created women/men I would like this to continue to be limited to people with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Given the way some TRA's have behaved towards women in recent years I think there should be as part of the psychiatric process that leads to a GRC an assessment of an individuals views and attitudes towards the opposite sex they want to become. It's very clear that some men who identify as or wish to become women legally actually dislike women very much.

DJLippy Fri 20-Apr-18 18:28:37

@BarrackerBarmer for president 2020

I felt such relief when I finally admitted transwomen are men. It was making me feel very unwell trying to reconcile my reason with my urge to be nice and accommodate people. I was being gas-lighted.

Let's not back down it's a reasonable position.

DJLippy Fri 20-Apr-18 18:39:11

What rights do tranwomen/men want that aren't provided by law? I think it's possible to respect transpeople without destroying women's rights. Preferred pronouns should always be a personal choice, not legally enforced in law.

Men are males, women are females. If you have a problem with that you should look at your own beliefs, rather than demanding people accommodate you. Respect is a 2 way street.

ClareB83 Fri 20-Apr-18 18:45:52

Yes @BarrackerBarmer! Exactly!

Mogleflop Fri 20-Apr-18 18:55:56

I think that Womanhood doesn't mean nonsense like liking shoes, flowers, dresses, handbags, being nice, feeling weepy at films, having long hair, wanting men to ogle you, enjoying being a sex object. Manhood isn't about the opposite of all these things. All that stuff is just gender nonsense or fetishisation.

Women are just the adult females of our species who can theoretically have eggs and give birth, men are adult males who theoretically make sperm. As such you can't really become the opposite, it's just a logical reality of being a biological creature in an imperfect universe.

Somewhere along the lines the two sexes became equated with gender nonsense as above (which I used to think we were overcoming). You can of course subscribe to stereotypes and try to change your body to match the opposite one, but that's just entrenching stereotypes (which we should be battling) and harming your body.

If you do transition, yes of course people around you should always be kind and respectful, you shouldn't be abused in any way. You should be able to love, live and work like anyone else. People should absolutely use the right names and pronouns.

But that's part of an implied social contract where you understand that this isn't a magical process which has actually made you completely into the opposite sex. You haven't lived that life and you still don't.

So the flip side of being treated well by society is that you shouldn't abuse it in return. You shouldn't try to silence, threaten or redefine the group you're trying to belong with. You shouldn't claim things meant for others just to feel like you really pass or belong (whether that's applying for an equal opportunities chance like a scholarship, or forcing your right to a relationship with a lesbian when you're not a woman).

It's the latter stuff and stereotypes that really bothers me.

PsychoPumpkin Fri 20-Apr-18 19:33:12

My view is that I quash we lived in a society where men could wear make up and dresses and no one even blinked, because women don’t own femininity. Alas, we don’t so people feel the need to ‘transition’ so it is acceptable to step outside of their gender roles.

I believe every single person deserves to be respected for who they are, their choices, their identities and I would stand alongside a trans person and fight for their rights against abuse.

My issues are the redefining of womanhood to include transwomen, apparently it is transphobic not to call them women but that I, born female, should now be ciswoman.

I do not think transwomen should have political posts reserved for women, I do not believe transwomen should play in female sports. I don not believe that penis retaining transwomen should be placed in women’s prisons.

I am happy with the current law, I have peed with transwomen in the next cubical from me and felt perfectly safe. I reject self ID because it removes that sense of safety.

I use preferred pronouns, i do not dead name, I do not tell them they are male BUT in my heart I know they are so I will never say that transwomen are women.

ALittleBitOfButter Fri 20-Apr-18 22:03:08

Oh wow Barracker! star

hipsterfun Fri 20-Apr-18 22:20:08

Barracker, that’s one of the best posts I’ve ever read on MN.

chicklingpixies Fri 20-Apr-18 22:20:56

Barracker wonderful post!!

diddlemethis Fri 20-Apr-18 22:22:17

I say that I don't believe that there are innate "ladies thoughts and actions" and separately appropriate thoughts and actions for men. That this is a regressive ideology. There are socialised norms, but these are hugely damaging, look at the suicide stats for men.

(I usually find that talking about it damaging men makes people listen, obviously no one wants to think about women's inequality.)

I argue that for the individual, being "trans" can alleviate the mental distress of not fitting in, and that we can support that. But moving forward, wouldn't it be better if we were to aim to remove the social boundaries.

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