My daughter perceives me as 'bigoted' re transgender issues.(229 Posts)
Two days ago I posted the following on Facebook
"A survey from employers asks 'What is my gender identity' and gives 4 possible answers.
1) Male (including female to male transmen)
2) Female (including male to female transwomen)
3) Non-binary (for example, androgyne)
4)Prefer not to say.
There is no option for me just to state that I am female."
Within minutes I got a Messenger response - including screenshot - of this post from my daughter saying she couldn't see why this was an issue and she'd like to understand at some point.
I messaged back saying yes we could discuss it at some later point and adding a bit of chat. I tried three times to send it and then realised she had blocked me.
Yesterday after I'd emailed her she said that my posting that had made her feel incredibly upset and that she perceived the post as 'bigoted'.
I think I'd find responses from feminist Mumsnetters quite helpful at this point. My daughter has just started her final term at university so it's best if I remain fairly calm about this one. We generally are close and get on well. As I only have a PAYG mobile, messaging each other by FB had worked well as a way of having the odd quick chat. Email feels more distant.
Im sorry...ive no really useful comments to make
But i dont really understand why your daughter feels she cant discuss it with you
My dad comes out with a right load of shit....and now he has taken to quoting me in conversations about feminism etc (he has forgotten who he got the quotes from to be fair )
Rude question but do you have 'form' for discussing feminism with her
Bigoted and you can't really expect to put something on social media and then not be willing to discuss it on the same public forum.
I dont think its bigoted, but you could have just put female, although if they include transwomen under female and transmen under men, then im not sure what the point of asking the question at all is.
Why should there be another box? That's basically saying that transpeople have a fake gender and cant be with the rest of us but have to have there own secluded box.
If say bigoted and I wouldn't be happy with that opinion as I feel a lot of people just dont understand transgender.
I think #nodebate is the reason we are in this mess in the first place.
I suspect a quick shutdown and cries of "transphobe" and "bigot" cover up the lack of argument.
What's bigoted about it?
I wouldn't know what to tick - I'd want to know why they wanted the info - because I don't have a gender identity but, I am female (which I suspect is the situation OP is in), and I would like to be included in stats for females without a gender identity.
If you're going to use terms, they need to be defined and clear - 'gender identity' refers to gender, but 'female' is a biological term. They need to be clear about what they want - biology, or gender, and be consistent with the terms used.
It's not bigoted. It is a perfectly valid point of view to believe that it is not possible to change sex and that gender identity is a harmful concept. Basically what that's saying is that if you don't adhere to the stereotypes for your sex there is something odd and unusual about you which may need fixing. For most women, this is just not true. Very few of us stick to the stereotypes, and a good thing too, as they are repressive. For men it's even worse than that. the stereotypes for male behaviour include not showing any emotion except anger, not talking about feelings, not developing their caring or nurturing qualities, and so on and so forth. Obviously lots of men do manage to break away from that, but a lot don't, and it's harmful to them and harmful to others because it leads to violence.
Lily Maynard on Twitter posted this image, which is a tidied up version of one I've seen doing the rounds there, and which perfectly expresses how I feel about this.
Yup, i think you're bigoted too. I can see her point. You have the option to click female. Why make some sort of big deal about it and go out of your way to post it on Facebook. I can see if there was some form of issue that really was an issue, but this is just petty and looks like you were going out of your way to find something to complain about to make a point and in doing so you come across as petty and bigoted.
I also imagine you've got previous for it, and your daughter has had enough.
For information. A FB friend who has an adult transgender child asked why I didn't put Option 2. (This was after my daughter had blocked me.) I wanted to reply to the question and after thinking it over put this.
" I think my disagreement with Option 2 (and also Option 1) would be that this is a data gathering exercise by the Arts Council who are doing equalities monitoring. For the purpose of such monitoring I regard females as a distinct group. This is a distinction based on biology. This distinctive biology leads to distinct social treatment. For the purpose of equalities monitoring I would regard people whose gender identity does not match their birth biological identity as a separate group - their social experiences will again be distinct. So I don't think the categorisation used by the Arts Council is necessarily going to produce helpful data. On a personal level I also believe that the identity I have as a female - the social experiences I have had as a result of having a particular body and having been treated from birth a a female - means that my psychological make-up is significantly different from a person who was born male but who decided that becoming female was the right way forward. I prefer to have the distinct and separate option of biological femaleness recognised in data monitoring exercises, because I believe that this will produce more useful data."
I think these are issues which it is important to discuss via social media and I quite appreciate that people will have a range of responses.
Female is a biological tsrn
It would be less wrong of they'd put 'woman inc transwomen'
Anyway the survey is itself bigoted as it tries to suggest that the word female itself doesn't make clear it includes transwomen
I feel a lot of people just dont understand transgender
That is hardly surprising with rambling definititions like this:
Trans – an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Trans man, Trans woman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois
Transitioning – the steps a trans person may take to live in the gender with which they identify. Each person’s transition will involve different things. For some this involves medical intervention, such as hormone therapy and surgeries, but not all trans people want or are able to have this. Transitioning also might involve things such as telling friends and family, dressing differently and changing official documents
The survey is bullshit. What does it mean by 'gender identity'? Will everyone 'read' the term in the same way? If not, it's less than worthless.
So you weren't asked for your sex at all, just for your gender identity? Goodness me. I hope the NHS doesn't follow suit or sensible planning of services is going to be tricky.
I’d be annoyed with the question, mainly because I’d want a box for ‘no gender’ and/or ‘gender non-conforming’ which is not quite the same as prefer not to say. (Am a woman. Think gender in its current incarnation is nonsense.)
But as the question asked specifically about gender not about sex, I think your response was slightly bigoted. If someone chooses to believe in the social construct of gender, then let them align with their choice.
My daughter is 20 and I suspect she'd consider your Facebook post "bigoted" too. However, I would have ticked the "female" box without thinking about it.
There's a difference between gender identity and biological sex.
I do not have a gender identity. I am a woman.
Your daughter blocked you? I have Facebook friends with very different beliefs to myself and at times their posts have angered me but I've never blocked anyone for having an opposing view. I've only ever blocked one person after they sent me porn and a dick pic.
Why is your daughter 'incredibly upset'? So many young people are given to hyperbole now, words being 'literal murder' when they're nothing of the kind, thousands of trans people being murdered or committing suicide, when that's untrue. I'd guess she doesn't like you being so 'unwoke' & stating it publicly. Good on you. Why should you think what she maybe thinks? I wouldn't have answered that question myself. We cannot change sex. Transwomen cannot become female. They may possibly live convincingly enough as women. But females they are not.
The problem with the box was that it conflate gender identity and sex. Your sex is female, your gender identity could be one of infinite options.
I think it is ridiculous for anyone to call you bigoted for wanting to separate gender indemnity from your sexed body. The trans movement have been working hard to do this.
Perhaps you can point this out to your daughter and follow up with a statement anboiy wanting everyone to be treated with dignity and respect.
She may think you are seeking to disadvantage trans people. You can put her straight on this.
Surely the above definition of transgender is so broad that it covers the vast majority of people?
Most women I know don't present as typically feminine in the gender sense all the time (long hair, makeup, heels etc), which renders gender theory pointless, doesn't it?
Yet within all of that women are at a disadvantage because of biology, not gender, so surely the survey is bigoted because the premise of gender leads to more sexism?
Free speech is dead in this country
How so? Someone's posted a view, someone else has replied to say that they think it is repellent. No-one's been stopped from speaking here. Free speech doesn't mean your views are immune from criticism.
You don’t sound bigoted to me.
You can’t identify into a sex.
I find the closing of all discussion on this topic “incredibly upsetting”.
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