An evening with the Mermaids and the GRA in my town

[Elendon]

There is going to be an evening discussing the GRA hosted by the local Labour Women's CLP soon and I want to attend this event.

I'm no longer a member of Labour but have been until recently. I would like to attend.

What are the questions I should ask? I know that any questioning will brand me a TERF and a bigot, but how can I phrase the questions in such a way that opens up the discussion.

[terfsRus]

Maybe ask about how does it work in practice to open women-only spaces to transwomen with male genitals when one of the impacts will be that Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women will either not accept that or will stop coming to those spaces altogether?

[BigDeskBob]

I would ask if they are concerned about children taking puberty blockers. But more in terms of them becoming isolated from and different to the other children around them who are going through puberty. It must make them feel even more of an outsider.

Good luck.

[Elendon]

Thank you!

I like the idea of the Muslim and Jewish Orthodox because there is a large cohort of both in the area and there are already Muslim women only swimming events.

Puberty blockers I will definitely question. I have never conformed to feminine ideals anyway, I'm hopeless with makeup and hair removal. I am female because of my biology.

[PositivelyPERF]

Do you have any Muslim or Jewish friends that would go with you? If not, can you go and speak with the religious representative from each prayer place and ask if they are aware of the meeting and what the implications of it are? It would be much harder for them to dismiss the affect it will have on women and indeed men of certain faiths if that person is sitting in front of them. If they try to, then they can be accused of religious bigotry. Good luck.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

You could ask how many people the suicide statistics were based on and whether there is a significant drop In suicide and self harm stats after surgical transition.

[Elendon]

I do know some Muslims, women, and they see this act as restricting women getting into the community and integrating. It is also a matter of health as well, everyone should be able to access facilities provided by the council for a subsidy (there are ongoing issues here regarding this).

I also want to bring up restrictions on the act for example in Ireland - convents and priesthoods (seminaries) and also prisons. Plus the fact that women who are the eldest will not be able to self ID in order to get inheritance in the UK. To me these restrictions clearly show that biology trumps gender identity.

[Elendon]

Also when it comes to dressing up it isn't okay to dress up in a culture you were not a part of

www.theodysseyonline.com/why-cant-dress-up-as-mulan

www.scarymommy.com/pocahontas-halloween-costume-is-cultural-appropriation/

www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/10/23/halloween-cultural-appropriation-questions/780479001/

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I think you should self ID as a man for the meeting. This could have several potential benefits...

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I also want to bring up restrictions on the act for example in Ireland - convents and priesthoods

I'm pretty sure there are religious exemptions in the UK too, something in the Scottish consultation heavily hinted at that.

[Elendon]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine prompted and inspired by Yesitsadebate's thread I'm going to self ID when I ask the questions. I've already rejoined the Labour Party to do this, just in case. And anyway change can only happen from within. I will not be silenced.

Can you expand on the Scottish exemptions regarding religion? I've participated in the Scottish consultation process but I still can't find any exemptions.

I have a friend who is a Nun (one of the good ones). She lives in Ireland.

[UpstartCrow]

See if they use the awful Gender Rainbow (binary) spectrum chart that shows black women are more masculine.

twitter.com/LilyLilyMaynard/status/955407448575283200

[Elendon]

I will UpstartCrow

Thanks for the link. Very helpful.

It will make my self ID on the night all the more poignant to the points I want to make.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Can you expand on the Scottish exemptions regarding religion?

Not all Scottish specifically:

"6.04.Scottish Ministers have made an order under section 22 for additional exceptions in relation to devolved matters.[51] The Gender Recognition (Disclosure of Information) (Scotland) Order 2005[52] provides that disclosure is not an offence where it is:



decide on the admission or appointment of the subject as a minister of religion"

"6.14.The Scottish Government is also not seeking to amend the 2010 Act to change the existing exception which allows for religious bodies to impose restrictions on the categories of people they wish to employ in a limited range of roles, for example, as a minister of religion.[56]"

www.gov.scot/Publications/2017/11/5459/347291

[thebewilderness]

If they do bring out that horrible chart ask them if their belief system identifies all black women as male and how that will affect black female children who do not identify as male.

[ButteredScone]

Please don’t confuse the feminist position with the cultural appropriation bullshit.

I’d like to be able to wear a boiler suit or a tie when I please, thanks.

[JudgeRulesNutterButter]

^^ yy to ButteredScone.

Personally, I would:
-Try and avoid using the word “trans” too much. Just to help you keep the debate more focussed on discriminating on sex vs: discriminating on gender. Trans has become too emotive and is seen as a “must-protect” top trump characteristic. Forget “what is trans” “what is woman” etc, I’d be trying to shut down that debate and keep to sex vs gender.
-Avoid a debate about changing rooms / loos unless to say why not just make them unisex. Personally I think the arguments for sex-segregation there are pretty weak compared with prisons, rape crisis centres, etc. (I’d still rather have segregated loos, but you want to argue on your strongest points!)
-Not go as trans because I think it risks distracting from the debate into a debate about your sincerity, also possibly makes you look goady. The swimming pool thread was about an individual challenge, but here you want to debate not be personal. Just my opinion.

I’d also want to target making the following points, probably better than I’m about to here at 5am

• Having male biology or female biology moves you into a category of people who are capable of getting prostate cancer or capable of getting cervical cancer. So you can make the point that there are areas where it’s appropriate to treat people differently based on their sex.
  
• Having a penis or not having one moves you into a category of people who are or are not capable of rape. So you can make the point that sex discrimination is appropriate in, for eg, rape crisis centres.
  

-If the “but we don’t let people refuse a smear test by a black nurse” racism comparison comes up, then you can point out that race does not change someone’s ability to rape.
-“But trans is a protected characteristic” -> “So is being female, because of female BIOLOGY, which no males have.”

Good luck x1000. Update us afterwards!

[Datun]

You could ask about homosexuality. It might be good to get that little nugget out in the open.

Say you/your daughter/sister is a lesbian. And you are being told it's transphobic to not include transwomen as dating partners.

You could innocently say, that's not right is it? How am I supposed to tackle this?

[Ereshkigal]

Faux innocence while asking pointed questions is absolutely the way to do it.

[Somersetter]

What do you mean by Plus the fact that women who are the eldest will not be able to self ID in order to get inheritance in the UK ? Surely in this country inheritance rights don't depend on sex anymore do they?

[Somersetter]

I completely agree with aiming for Faux innocence while asking pointed questions - hopefully you can sow seeds of doubt in a non-confrontational way, and make some people at least start to question the current thinking.

[Ereshkigal]

hat do you mean by Plus the fact that women who are the eldest will not be able to self ID in order to get inheritance in the UK ? Surely in this country inheritance rights don't depend on sex anymore do they?

This is about primogeniture.

[IntelligentYetIndecisive]

Mermaids called the police after a teacher misgendered a pupil.

She'd committed a hate crime....

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/02/23/teacher-accused-misgendering-child-told-police-committed-hate/

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I saw that. TBF in this instance it was ongoing and persistent, but then she was a stickler for the correct grammar.

[Somersetter]

But @Ereshkigal primogeniture doesn't have any legal bearing on UK inheritance anymore does it?

[Datun]

Misgendering can't be a hate crime.
For something to be a hate crime, an actual crime has to be committed. The hate part, discrimination against a protected characteristic, is an aggravating factor which turns it from a crime to hate crime. Or it's the motivation for a crime.

Although, to the surprise of no one, the protected characteristic of sex isn't included.

So misgendering would be discrimination, but not a crime.