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Loose Women. genderfluid person 'chooses the more advantageous gender'

(15 Posts)
Elle8989 Wed 21-Feb-18 04:05:53

Been reading some of the threads about trans. This is about genderfluidity.

Do you think it's okay to say you can pick a gender as and when it 'suits' or is 'advantageous'?

Rain Dove thinks so. As a genderfluid male and female model, stating, 'if I was on The Titanic I'd firstly be a man then change to a woman once it starts sinking.'

Similarly, 'I'd be a woman in a nightclub as it's cheaper but then a man walking home.'

Rain uses any pronoun and doesn't want to 'limit a person by a set of genitals.'

Rain is a 'gender capitalist' but accepts some people are 'freed by not using binary genders whilst others are freed choosing the right one.'

My thought is, if we are not confined to genitals then the 'switch as is advantageous' is counterproductive? Also in the first two examples that's sex not gender or am I wrong?

Rain was so nice and I accept the choice to be genderfluid. It was more switching from one to another but then also saying Rain is neither.

Please can I have your take as I get confused by gender theories and just want an opinion! ! Apologies if sound ignorant that's why I'm asking!

ShamelesslyPlacemarking Wed 21-Feb-18 04:31:23

From what I've read she doesn't identify as transgender. She knows she's a woman, but because she happens to be very androgynous-looking, she uses her ability to 'pass' as a male whenever it happens to be advantageous and vice versa for passing as a female.

Frankly, I imagine more women would do it if they could, but they'd end up spending most time as a "man". "Gender capitalism" is all well and good but the exchange rate for femininity is almost always a lot lower than it is for masculinity. Femininity appears to be capable of buying drinks at bars, but not places at board tables.

MothQuandary Wed 21-Feb-18 07:39:47

I’ve just googled her and, my god, she is completely gorgeous - as a man and a woman.

Who wouldn’t choose to be a man walking home from a club, if you could pass? Being 6’1” obviously helps.

Elle8989 Wed 21-Feb-18 19:49:58

I understand she's not transgender but gender fluid. So is self IDing ok if you ID as both?

She is not saying I'm an androgynous women passing for both but switches gender and is a female and male model using she/her and 'he/him'. Obviously she has no body dysphoria.

I'm only asking because there are a lot of threads against transgender women who self ID. I was wondering then, if we look at genderfluid men, who switch between male and female as they see is advantageous, is this okay ?

There is a lot about how transgender concretes men and women stereotypes. If Rain is dressing in heals in the womens magazine and a suit in the mens magazine then isn't this the same issue ppl have against ppl who dress a certain way and saying they are trans?

I'm really confused by the debate.

CharisMater Wed 21-Feb-18 19:53:45

That seems less annoying, what little I know about it.

As he/she is not re-appropriating a gender

Elle8989 Wed 21-Feb-18 19:53:51

*Shamelessly placemarking

If it's not buying seats at the board table pretending to be a man won't help women?

*MothQuandary

I can see it would be easier to pretend to be a man than battle for women's safety.

What about the suffraggettes. Should they have pretended to be men? I'm obviously losing the plot from reading too many threads!

Elle8989 Wed 21-Feb-18 19:57:36

*charis
It doesn't annoy me nor does self iding trans. So this is where I get confused. I never saw any issues with trans so going to read more about it.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain Wed 21-Feb-18 19:58:56

Meh. She's punching up.

MothQuandary Wed 21-Feb-18 20:07:05

Very few women can really pass as a man. Rain Dove doesn’t actually pass, once she speaks. She looks like a man when she’s being photographed for a magazine. But she probably passes well enough from a distance to avoid being raped on her way home from a club.

I don’t think Rain Dove is particularly helping women by masquerading as a man, but she’s not doing any harm either. In fact, she is drawing attention to women’s position as second class, by pointing out the times when it is better to pass as a man (i.e. all the time except when there is a drink offer on).

I hate the sort of “I’m all right, Jane” personal empowerment nonsense of e.g. sex worker activists but this doesn’t bother me like that. She’s just living her life without adversely affecting anyone else, so I can’t see anything wrong with it. And, as I may have already mentioned, Christ, is she hot!

Fishfingersandwichnocheese Wed 21-Feb-18 20:13:15

If only we could all identify our way out of being discriminated against a on the grounds of our sex. Or worse.

Fishfingersandwichnocheese Wed 21-Feb-18 20:17:12

I also wouldn’t have described Rain as gender fluid. She knows she’s a woman and also knows there are times when it might be better for people to assume you are male therefore is happy to pretend to be.

McTufty Wed 21-Feb-18 20:25:00

I actually have more of a problem with gender fluidity than transgender, in that with the latter I accept it can be a genuinely felt identity, and at least there is some certainty about the legal gender of the person (I think self ID is problematic and I oppose it).

If someone can pick and choose whether they are to be treated as male or female hour to hour, day to day, that strikes a far greater blow to the position of sex segregation in my opinion, and is far more susceptible to abuse than someone who once they have self IDd presumably can’t keep changing back and forth.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain Wed 21-Feb-18 20:30:25

I don’t think Rain Dove is particularly helping women by masquerading as a man

She might be ... especially if she encourages more women to do it. Women with the ovaries to start self-iding as men and invading male space could be our quickest way out of this mess.

Although, gentlemangirls, I advise doing it in groups. Large groups.

holycheeseplant Wed 21-Feb-18 20:57:22

Throughout most of this I was thinking 'fantastic' she's really exposing how the patriarchy works.
I found it fascinating.

Towards the end, the message to young people and her claim of non binary, I was feeling like she'd been sipping the kool aid a little, though it sounds like she's had flack and has 'offended some'.

Because were really all non binary I find it a bit of a non starter to go on about that but she demonstrates how very different it is to be treated as a male, exposing the issues of stereotyping and sexism in our society.

https://uk.style.yahoo.com/meet-rain-dove-firefighter-turned-model-embraces-genderless-074649997.html

ShamelesslyPlacemarking Thu 22-Feb-18 01:23:31

TBH people can identify as transgender as much as they want, and it's 100 percent fine with me, as long as they don't start trying to tell me that gender is exactly the same thing as sex. Rain doesn't seem to be making that point.

If it's not buying seats at the board table pretending to be a man won't help women?

I'm not clear on what you're asking. My point is that passing as male brings considerably better advantages (board positions, higher pay, not worrying about getting raped walking down the street) than passing as female does (free drinks/dinners, having doors held for you, getting people to help you change a tire).

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